D&D General The DM Shortage

[Mort]

House rule it and try it. Who cares what other people think? Maybe you'll love it. If it's a good idea, it'll catch on.

I couldn't care less what other people think but it's sad to see people so closed minded.

My initial reservation is that it potentially creates an issue where every time they run into serious trouble, players start having their characters pray to the gods. It could get silly very quickly.

Depends how it's implemented. If all it does is stabalize a PC, then it's mostly flavor.

If it can accomplish something more serious (actually Grant HP, for example)? Attach some costs that are interesting, flavorful and most importantly consequential.

As important as they're supposed to be, Gods have very little actual impact in most campaigns. If there is some interest in changing that - stuff like this might be a way.

 

[James Gasik]

I couldn't care less what other people think but it's sad to see people so closed minded.


Depends how it's implemented. If all it does is stabalize a PC, then it's mostly flavor.

If it can accomplish something more serious (actually Grant HP, for example)? Attach some costs that are interesting, flavorful and most importantly consequential.

As important as they're supposed to be, Gods have very little actual impact in most campaigns. If there is some interest in changing that - stuff like this might be a way.

Ideally there should be a mechanic for this. Devout players can accrue "favor" with the Gods (or disfavor!), based on their actions. Over time, a God or one of their servants might intercede on their behalf, but only if it benefits their goals to do so, which burns some of that favor.

Other followers of that god, as well as priests and the like, would be more favorably disposed to characters with high favor as well.

But this is only if you want gods and their works to be integral to your game, of course. The Cleric's divine intervention ability not only undermines other characters possibly having a relationship with deities, but it actually forces gods to be active, unless the DM is willing to replace the ability with something else!

"In my campaign, the Gods are distant and uncaring."

"Huh, great. Well I'm going to have my Cleric attempt Divine Intervention...awesome, success!"

"....."

 

[Art Waring]

I have done what I can to stop the DM shortage. I have many times run short term games to help get groups up and running, then passed off to one of them. I even ran intro games at stores and cons and exchanged emails and face books with people who were going to try to DM.

Not all of them stayed in touch. Not all of the ones that stayed in touch stayed playing and/or DMing. However The longer I am on enworld the longer I wonder if doing that has helped at all.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

At least you are trying, that matters to me at least.

 

[MNblockhead]

House rule it and try it. Who cares what other people think? Maybe you'll love it. If it's a good idea, it'll catch on.

My initial reservation is that it potentially creates an issue where every time they run into serious trouble, players start having their characters pray to the gods. It could get silly very quickly.

Depends on the game you and your players want to run. In a world where people are devout, especially one with such obvious signs of divine favor and intervention, why wouldn't people be praying, beseeching, and thanking the gods constantly? Certainly this is behavior seen among devout believers of many religions and cultures in the real world, even without such clear signs for the existence of gods.

I think that this could be handled, as another poster mentioned, with divine favor or what I've seen called "concordance" in other systems. By acting in ways that the god favors, any character could earn points that can be used to increase the percentage of success.

 

[Cadence]

Depends on the game you and your players want to run. In a world where people are devout, especially one with such obvious signs of divine favor and intervention, why wouldn't people be praying, beseeching, and thanking the gods constantly? Certainly this is behavior seen among devout believers of many religions and cultures in the real world, even without such clear signs for the existence of gods.

I think that this could be handled, as another poster mentioned, with divine favor or what I've seen called "concordance" in other systems. By acting in ways that the god favors, any character could earn points that can be used to increase the percentage of success.

Does a world like that with active gods feel like the kind of world where paladins and cleric would likely lose powers for straying?

 

[MNblockhead]

Does a world like that with active gods feel like the kind of world where paladins and cleric would likely lose powers for straying?

Knee-jerk reaction is yes, but typical D&D worlds have many gods, often with competing agendas. Players should have agency to change their PC's faiths. That could be a major element of the story that emerges in play. So, in practice, in my games, I would likely be more of social and political challenges that arise from turning your back on your church, cult, etc. But how far I would lean into that as a DM would depend on adventure, world, and most importantly, what the players are into.

 

[overgeeked]

Knee-jerk reaction is yes, but typical D&D worlds have many gods, often with competing agendas. Players should have agency to change their PC's faiths. That could be a major element of the story that emerges in play. So, in practice, in my games, I would likely be more of social and political challenges that arise from turning your back on your church, cult, etc. But how far I would lean into that as a DM would depend on adventure, world, and most importantly, what the players are into.

I think there’s a bit of modern bias in this tangent. The ancient Romans, for example, didn’t care what a person believed, only that the performed the right rituals at the right time, orthopraxy (right practice). In modern times we center having the right beliefs, orthodoxy. This is a split in polytheism, which favors orthopraxy, and monotheism, which favors orthodoxy.

Applying that to a truly polytheistic world like your typical D&D setting and all you’d need to do to switch deities is pick up the rituals and practices of your new god. Though the specifics of the mortal organization accepting you would be a different matter entirely.

But then that would seem to point to the person themself having the power and the deity being the conduit. Can you be a cleric or paladin devoted to an ideal instead of a religion? Why not?

 

[Clint_L]

Thinking more about it, this would be an impossible rule to implement in my campaigns, since most characters aren't religious and would be disadvantaged compared to the ones that are able to pray for (and potentially receive) divine aid.

 

[Maxperson]

No. Stop fighting it and have five minute epic fights…and as many as you and the players want in a given day.

Those don't exist in 5e. A 5e minute fight is beyond easy for the party to beat. Even easy fights take longer than 5 minutes.

 

[Maxperson]

I actually get what you're saying, sure.

But, if the world has magic or is magic? Shouldn't there be magic herbs that could solve the problem? Could even be the basis for an adventure. You ARE solving the problem with magic, just not with the typical spell or PC ability.

Herbs for the most part are mundane, even if a combination of them can be used to create a magical potion of say healing. A flat out magical herb that all by itself cures mummy rot is still going to magic for the solution. You've just changed it from "spell" or "magic item" to "magic herb."

 

[overgeeked]

Those don't exist in 5e. A 5e minute fight is beyond easy for the party to beat. Even easy fights take longer than 5 minutes.

A mistype. An epic five-minute work day is what I meant. Compressing the entire adventuring day into a single fight, 3-4x deadly, using the epic heroism optional rule. Short rest as a free action, no more than twice per long rest. Long rest takes 5 minutes. It would likely go sideways after level 10. But then 5E generally goes sideways after level 10.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, I remember being saddened by how many people were completely closed to even the concept

In my game it's possible, but it's not going to be easy or likely, because if it's too easy, there's no real point to being a cleric. I usually make it a percentile roll and you need to roll 00. That can be modified by things such as having done the god/faith an important service, having the acolyte background(and roleplaying it), etc.

 

[Maxperson]

A mistype. An epic five-minute work day is what I meant. Compressing the entire adventuring day into a single fight, 3-4x deadly, using the epic heroism optional rule. Short rest as a free action, no more than twice per long rest. Long rest takes 5 minutes. It would likely go sideways after level 10. But then 5E generally goes sideways after level 10.

Yeah. Going sideways is the problem since my campaigns typically go into the mid teens to 20th level.

 

[Mort]

Herbs for the most part are mundane, even if a combination of them can be used to create a magical potion of say healing. A flat out magical herb that all by itself cures mummy rot is still going to magic for the solution. You've just changed it from "spell" or "magic item" to "magic herb."

Yes, but at least it's a change of pace (if not overused). Plus you can do all sorts of fun stuff with herbs, having to figure out how to actually use the herb etc. And in world of magic, the line between mundane and magic herbs might be pretty blurred, depending on what they can do.

The real point is to flavor things up a bit so it's not binary. As in the PCs KNOW to look for more things than just spells and traditional magic items.

 

[MNblockhead]

I think there’s a bit of modern bias in this tangent. The ancient Romans, for example, didn’t care what a person believed, only that the performed the right rituals at the right time, orthopraxy (right practice). In modern times we center having the right beliefs, orthodoxy. This is a split in polytheism, which favors orthopraxy, and monotheism, which favors orthodoxy.

From what I've read about ancient Greek and Roman polytheism, you are right, but one's religious life went far beyond state ritual. I will, however, admit a modern bias in terms approaching fantasy polytheism based on my experiences with modern religions. Of course, we are talking about fantasy worlds and fantasy religions. Further, it is a game and there are mechanics in the game related to the practice of religion. A certain amount of simplification and hand waving is expected.

Applying that to a truly polytheistic world like your typical D&D setting and all you’d need to do to switch deities is pick up the rituals and practices of your new god. Though the specifics of the mortal organization accepting you would be a different matter entirely.

Yes. Except that the mechanics of divine magic in the game imply a more personal relationship with the god. I don't have an issue with the PC acting outside of a religious organization. I kinda think of most D&D cleric and paladin PCs -- well, really, most PCs of any class in the play I typically encounter--as being iconoclasts. As a DM, I generally let the player decide what their character's relationship with the divine and with religious organizations is and try to work that into the campaign.

But then that would seem to point to the person themself having the power and the deity being the conduit. Can you be a cleric or paladin devoted to an ideal instead of a religion? Why not?

Sure, if that is how the player wants to play it. In D&D, however, I typically see a world-building assumption that various ideals are within the domain of one or more gods. Would those gods grant you powers just for their devotion to the ideal and not a particular god--depends on the world building and play preferences of the table.

I've approached all of this in different ways in different campaigns. In most campaigns, I find players playing clerics and paladins tend to roleplay devotion to a specific deity, if they even roleplay it at all.

 

[MNblockhead]

Thinking more about it, this would be an impossible rule to implement in my campaigns, since most characters aren't religious and would be disadvantaged compared to the ones that are able to pray for (and potentially receive) divine aid.

If it is mechanically backed into the game more players are likely to engage in it. It as a LONG time ago when I played Warhammer Fantasy, but if I remember correctly, the PCs could go pray / donate to a temple and get short term buffs. Can't remember if they were randomized or not, but I definitely remember all the characters stopping by a temple before going into a dangerous area whenever they were able.

 

[MNblockhead]

Yeah. Going sideways is the problem since my campaigns typically go into the mid teens to 20th level.

Going sideways would be nice, after 15th things just go exponentially gonzo. In my current campaign, I've just leaned into it. High level DnD is just a very different game. And I've come to accept that this is fine. It would be nice if WotC would give DMs more tools and adventures for high-level play. I've gotten much better and running high-level play, but I use a lot of third-party material and it takes more time to prep to make interesting and challenging encounters. I'm enjoying it more this time around, but I still prefer low-level play in 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

Going sideways would be nice, after 15th things just go exponentially gonzo. In my current campaign, I've just leaned into it. High level DnD is just a very different game. And I've come to accept that this is fine. It would be nice if WotC would give DMs more tools and adventures for high-level play. I've gotten much better and running high-level play, but I use a lot of third-party material and it takes more time to prep to make interesting and challenging encounters. I'm enjoying it more this time around, but I still prefer low-level play in 5e.

Yeah. The number of creatures past CR 8 or 9 is just abysmal.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Yeah. The number of creatures past CR 8 or 9 is just abysmal.

Why is that a problem? With bounded accuracy, monsters don't become olsolete when PCs hit high levels. You can still keep using them!

 

[Maxperson]

Why is that a problem? With bounded accuracy, monsters don't become olsolete when PCs hit high levels. You can still keep using them!

Because it's boring as hell to fight a bunch of low level monsters at high level. Once in a while it might be fun to fight 300 orcs at 20th level, but most of the time the group will want to face some high CR challenge, of which there are very, very, VERY few choices in 5e.