D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[ezo]

I though HP "damage" isn't supposed to be meat?

Yeah, I was gonna get into that, but the whole bruising, cuts, fatigue stuff... shrug

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I though HP "damage" isn't supposed to be meat?

It’s not nor has it ever been a linear relationship. Nor have other things been excluded. You can physically be limited by hit points even as motivation and other factors influence your performance.

Alignment discussions a s those related to hit points are often unhelpful due to black and white thinking that is not flexible. It’s been a mushy mechanic that simply works on a few levels good enough.

Here it can be that hit points are meat to a limited extent but also other things. If hit points have nothing to do with physical well-being we have a lot of ‘splaining to do.

Surely we don’t need to litigate stuff in that was clarified in high Gygaxian?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It’s not nor has it ever been a linear relationship. Nor have other things been excluded. You can physically be limited by hit points even as motivation and other factors influence your performance.

Alignment discussions a s those related to hit points are often unhelpful due to black and white thinking that is not flexible.

Here it can be that hit points are meat to a limited extent but also other things. If hit points have nothing to do with physical well-being we have a lot of ‘splaining to do.

Surely we don’t need to litigate stuff in that was clarified in high Gygaxian?

Well, I don't agree with everything Gygax ever wrote, but I see your point.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Well, I don't agree with everything Gygax ever wrote, but I see your point.

No and he would not have expected you to do so at your table.

It’s a useful abstraction that involves several things I think including “meat.” But his warhorse vs fighter example was helpful to me.

It also suggests that hit points might be weighted to the physical more in some cases with skill and luck being a proportionally greater contributor in others.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No and he would not have expected you to do so at your table.

It’s a useful abstraction that involves several things I think including “meat.” But his warhorse vs fighter example was helpful to me.

It also suggests that hit points might be weighted to the physical more in some cases with skill and luck being a proportionally greater contributor in others.

Agreed. One idea I'd like to see more (and have been using in my own games, is proportional healing, such that the amount healed varies based on the hit dice of the target, or perhaps merely their max HP.

Similar to what @pemerton has spoken of regarding 4e, although I wouldn't want to execute that idea the way they did.

 

[ezo]

It also suggests that hit points might be weighted to the physical more in some cases with skill and luck being a proportionally greater contributor in others.

Which is why I thought the idea I read a long time ago (don't remember who suggested), you use your highest ability modifier to add to hit points at each level instead of just CON.

Then skill is the number of hit dice, and luck is how well you roll.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Which is why I thought the idea I read a long time ago (don't remember who suggested), you use your highest ability modifier to add to hit points at each level instead of just CON.

Then skill is the number of hit dice, and luck is how well you roll.

Well interesting…I dunno. I am too lazy to change the base part of the game. I think though the broader point was there are physical limitations which map onto hit points, which I agree was/is the intention…

 

[pemerton]

It’s a useful abstraction that involves several things I think including “meat.” But his warhorse vs fighter example was helpful to me.

It also suggests that hit points might be weighted to the physical more in some cases with skill and luck being a proportionally greater contributor in others.

Gygax says exactly this in his DMG.

For most monsters, depleting their hit points means physically hurting them. But for some, it's more like fighting a skilled warrior.

Within the AD&D framework for hp, which as @Micah Sweet notes 4e D&D picks up, there is no need to decide in advance what any given moment of hp loss means. It is narrated after-the-fact, reflecting everything that happened. So as Gygax explains, if a hit triggers a save vs poison then you can't narrate the hit and its consequences until the saving throw is rolled - if the save is made, the hit can be narrated as a graze or a near thing, narrowly avoided by skill and luck; if the save is failed, then some sort of physical injury must be narrated, even if it's only a mild puncture.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Gygax says exactly this in his DMG.

For most monsters, depleting their hit points means physically hurting them. But for some, it's more like fighting a skilled warrior.

Within the AD&D framework for hp, which as @Micah Sweet notes 4e D&D picks up, there is no need to decide in advance what any given moment of hp loss means. It is narrated after-the-fact, reflecting everything that happened. So as Gygax explains, if a hit triggers a save vs poison then you can't narrate the hit and its consequences until the saving throw is rolled - if the save is made, the hit can be narrated as a graze or a near thing, narrowly avoided by skill and luck; if the save is failed, then some sort of physical injury must be narrated, even if it's only a mild puncture.

It is still weird. If in fiction a character completely avoided the blow yet lost HP, why would they drink a healing potion? After all, as far as they know, they're perfectly fine.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Gygax says exactly this in his DMG.

For most monsters, depleting their hit points means physically hurting them. But for some, it's more like fighting a skilled warrior.

Within the AD&D framework for hp, which as @Micah Sweet notes 4e D&D picks up, there is no need to decide in advance what any given moment of hp loss means. It is narrated after-the-fact, reflecting everything that happened. So as Gygax explains, if a hit triggers a save vs poison then you can't narrate the hit and its consequences until the saving throw is rolled - if the save is made, the hit can be narrated as a graze or a near thing, narrowly avoided by skill and luck; if the save is failed, then some sort of physical injury must be narrated, even if it's only a mild puncture.

You can get creative even with a hit. It was somewhat dried up and did not remaster despite a hit, the warrior was nauseous but it passed…

It is pretty abstract and malleable. But it can be physical well being too.