The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[MarkB]

Here's the problem with overly detailed rules dealing with edge cases in D&D.

When you and I play at the table, we don't need those rules. We are perfectly comfortable ruling on-the-spot to take care of the edge cases. Like the FIFA football referees, we see what happened, BOOM, ruling. Done.

However, the corporation that publishes D&D has realized that they sell a lot (like, an obscene amount) of books if they can get a popular Organized Play program going, and then drive the sales with specific adventures. During the 3.5E RPGA era, they had this down to a science. Say, they come out with Sandstorm, a book about desert campaigns. It's meh. On it's own, it might sell okay, some people still have nostalgia for Al Qadim, they put some references in there, okay. Fine. However, then they release a season's worth of scenarios in their Living Greyhawk campaign, which has 50,000 active players worldwide, and they use Sandstorm extensively. Like, they allow new player options from it (none of which have undergone thorough playtesting), all of the adventures take place in the Bright Lands (a massive desert), they use monsters from it (which have never been in the Bright Lands before), etc. All of the sudden, DMs who had been running Living Greyhawk need to pick up the book, because they need to refer to spells from it (which are new and have never been seen anywhere else). Players need the book because they heard this one prestige class has great synergy with something their character does, and there's this broken magic item in it, and did you see they had rules for centaur characters...

Suddenly, convention organizers need to deal with thousands of new edge cases. Every four months. And when a DM just makes a ruling on the spot, that isn't specifically spelled out in the rules, the players complain and report the DM. And nobody wants to be blacklisted, because the program puts hundreds or thousands of butts in seats at the convention, and if I want that free DM pass I need to be able to run those games, which I can't do if I've been banned from the program.

It was a very effective marketing program at that time, is what I'm saying, and the rulebooks were being written specifically to try to address that, is what I believe.

Now, under 5E, they went for a more relaxed set of rules, but they're still pretty beefy, and people still love to argue and rules lawyer. I had a player threaten to report me to the convention's RPG Director because I had a barbarian throw a javelin at him when he tried to flee a fight by flying away, as his argument was the barbarian stat block does not include javelins, so they can't have them. All barbarians everywhere use greatswords, because that's what's in the stat block in the Monster Manual.

I laughed in his face, and his complaint went nowhere because I was the RPG Director of the convention and the ultimate arbiter. But that is the kind of player that the rulebooks are written to try to address. They know the rest of us will just ignore what we don't like anyway.

Yeah, when WotC talks about better monetising D&D, organised play is the most obvious arena in which they could actually pull something off. Hopefully they don't try to introduce microtransactions.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

"Your DM has has a barbarian throw a spear? Phone 3639-DND and purchase the 1.99$ one-time ruling that barbarians don't know how to use a javelin!"

 

[CleverNickName]

 

[Ryujin]

Here's the problem with overly detailed rules dealing with edge cases in D&D.

When you and I play at the table, we don't need those rules. We are perfectly comfortable ruling on-the-spot to take care of the edge cases. Like the FIFA football referees, we see what happened, BOOM, ruling. Done.

However, the corporation that publishes D&D has realized that they sell a lot (like, an obscene amount) of books if they can get a popular Organized Play program going, and then drive the sales with specific adventures. During the 3.5E RPGA era, they had this down to a science. Say, they come out with Sandstorm, a book about desert campaigns. It's meh. On it's own, it might sell okay, some people still have nostalgia for Al Qadim, they put some references in there, okay. Fine. However, then they release a season's worth of scenarios in their Living Greyhawk campaign, which has 50,000 active players worldwide, and they use Sandstorm extensively. Like, they allow new player options from it (none of which have undergone thorough playtesting), all of the adventures take place in the Bright Lands (a massive desert), they use monsters from it (which have never been in the Bright Lands before), etc. All of the sudden, DMs who had been running Living Greyhawk need to pick up the book, because they need to refer to spells from it (which are new and have never been seen anywhere else). Players need the book because they heard this one prestige class has great synergy with something their character does, and there's this broken magic item in it, and did you see they had rules for centaur characters...

Suddenly, convention organizers need to deal with thousands of new edge cases. Every four months. And when a DM just makes a ruling on the spot, that isn't specifically spelled out in the rules, the players complain and report the DM. And nobody wants to be blacklisted, because the program puts hundreds or thousands of butts in seats at the convention, and if I want that free DM pass I need to be able to run those games, which I can't do if I've been banned from the program.

It was a very effective marketing program at that time, is what I'm saying, and the rulebooks were being written specifically to try to address that, is what I believe.

Now, under 5E, they went for a more relaxed set of rules, but they're still pretty beefy, and people still love to argue and rules lawyer. I had a player threaten to report me to the convention's RPG Director because I had a barbarian throw a javelin at him when he tried to flee a fight by flying away, as his argument was the barbarian stat block does not include javelins, so they can't have them. All barbarians everywhere use greatswords, because that's what's in the stat block in the Monster Manual.

I laughed in his face, and his complaint went nowhere because I was the RPG Director of the convention and the ultimate arbiter. But that is the kind of player that the rulebooks are written to try to address. They know the rest of us will just ignore what we don't like anyway.

Oh, how I hate the players that tell me what exists in the world I'm creating. A player can memorize the books all he wants but, ultimately, the way that the world works is the sole purview of the DM.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XDdvIDHasJTW8qJtsn/giphy-downsized-large.gif

 

[RealAlHazred]

That’s the problem right there. Writing books to sell, writing adventures to push the books, and who cares if the stuff is well designed, good for the game, etc. Nothing matters but sales.

Sure, but I'm just explaining why the 5E (and PF2, and OneD&D, and whatever hits us in 2030) rules are that dense and why none of the Old School Revolution rulebooks (just as an example) have that kind of rules-density. They don't sell their stuff with Organized Play campaigns, they do it with nostalgia. "Just like B/X, but better organized!" "Basically BECMI, but with a bunch of really cool house rules." "AD&D 1E with all the errata and a bunch of other corrections included." And if we're talking nostalgia for 80s gaming, being arbitrarily killed by a DM's obscure ruling (that makes no sense and was never established previously in the campaign) plays directly into that nostalgia. So, probably far fewer arguments at OSR conventions. I assume; when I was RPG DIrector for our local con, none of the other system fans ever gave me any trouble over rulings.

 

[Cadence]

So, hypothetically, if there was a crowd funded legal campaign, are there any tax issues beyond what would happen if a single rich person hired the lawyer themselves?

 

[CleverNickName]

I didn't post this in any of the OneD&D rant-threads. But hoo boy, it was tempting.

Wait. Wait wait wait, back up a bit.​

​

Are you telling me that Wizards of the Coast, a for-profit company and subsidiary of Hasbro, is trying to make money? from their own products? Are you--hang on, hang on--are you saying that the only reason they are making this new stuff, is so they can sell the new stuff, to people who want to buy it?! Is that what you're getting at? Are you suggesting that, after spending countless dollars to acquire, build, and promote the D&D brand after it was nearly annihilated by TSR, Inc., that they would somehow want money in return?! WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE, A BUSINESS?!​

 

[Deset Gled]

At Cornel University, there is an incredible piece of scientific equipment known as the Tunneling Electron Microscope. Now, this microscope is so powerful that, by firing electrons, you can actually see images of the atom--the infinitesimally minute building block of our universe. RollForCombat, if I were using that microscope right now, I still wouldn't be able to locate any interest in the OneD&D OGL.

(with apologies to Frasier.)

Counterpoint: The effort required to make that post proves the existence of non-zero interest.

 

[CleverNickName]

Counterpoint: The effort required to make that post proves the existence of non-zero interest.

Even if I just lazily copied/pasted it from somewhere else?

I suppose you're right. Maybe not non-zero, but certainly subatomic.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I had a player threaten to report me to the convention's RPG Director because I had a barbarian throw a javelin at him when he tried to flee a fight by flying away, as his argument was the barbarian stat block does not include javelins, so they can't have them. All barbarians everywhere use greatswords, because that's what's in the stat block in the Monster Manual.

I laughed in his face, and his complaint went nowhere because I was the RPG Director of the convention and the ultimate arbiter. But that is the kind of player that the rulebooks are written to try to address. They know the rest of us will just ignore what we don't like anyway.

I mean ... wow ... just wow .....


WHAT KIND OF MONSTER REMOVES PLAYER AGENCY LIKE THAT???!!!!!!