The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[RealAlHazred]

Awesome! Thanks for the recommendation. It's helpful to know of a good place to start.

To be fair, there's no "bad place" to start reading Vance. He explores many ideas, sometimes writing novels that explore the same idea from two different directions (The Gray Price vs. Araminta Station). About the only slightly-less-good starting point is with, say, the second novel out of a series, but even then all the books are solid as stand-alones.

As far as magic theory goes, the Dying Earth system develops quite a bit in Rhialto the Marvellous:

The great magicians of Grand Motholam were sufficiently supple that they perceived the limits of human understanding, and spent most of their efforts dealing with practical problems, searching for abstract principles only when all else failed. For this reason, magic retains its distinctly human flavor, even though the activating agents are never human. A casual glance into one of the basic catalogues emphasizes this human orientation; the nomenclature has a quaint and archaic flavor. Looking into (for instance) Chapter Four of Killiclaw's Primer of Practical Magic, Interpersonal Effectuations, one notices, indited in bright purple ink, such terminology as:

• Xarfaggio's Physical Malepsy
• Arnhoult's Sequestrious Digitalia
• Lutar Brassnose's Twelve-fold Bounty
• The Spell of Forlorn Encystment
• Tinkler's Old-fashioned Froust
• Clambard's Rein of Long Nerves
• The Green and Purple Postponement of Joy
• Panguire's Triumphs of Discomfort
• Lugwiler's Dismal Itch
• Khulip's Nasal Enhancement
• Radl's Pervasion of the Incorrect Chord

A spell in essence corresponds to a code, or set of instructions, inserted into the sensorium of an entity which is able and not unwilling to alter the environment in accordance with the message conveyed by the spell. These entities are not necessarily 'intelligent,' nor even 'sentient,' and their conduct, from the tyro's point of view, is unpredictable, capricious and dangerous.

The most pliable and cooperative of these creatures range from the lowly and frail elementals, through the sandestins. More fractious entities are known by the Temuchin as 'daihak,' which include 'demons' and 'gods.' A magician's power derives from the abilities of the entities he is able to control. Every magician of consequence employs one or more sandestins. A few arch-magicians of Grand Motholam dared to employ the force of the lesser daihaks. To recite or even to list the names of these magicians is to evoke wonder and awe. Their names tingle with power. Some of Grand Motholam's most notable and dramatic were:

• Phandaal the Great
• Amberlin I
• Amberlin II
• Dibarcas Maior (who studied under Phandaal)
• Arch-Mage Mael Lei Laio (he lived in a palace carved from a single moon-stone)
• The Vapurials
• The Green and Purple College
• Zinqzin the Encyclopaedist
• Kyrol of Porphyrhyncos
• Calanctus the Calm
• Llorio the Sorceress

The magicians of the 21st Aeon were, in comparison, a disparate and uncertain group, lacking both grandeur and consistency.

 

[Mezuka]

I first encountered Vance at 17, Cugel's Saga and the first volume of Lyonesse in my then-local library. He has a few foibles and points that haven't aged well, but he's mostly a lot of fun.

I still think Lyonesse is tied for me with LotR for my favorite fantasy series ever. Though they're VERY different. Vance is much earthier and funnier and more sarcastic and cynical, even though that's interspersed with lots of lovely fairy magic and derring-do.

Never read Lyonesse. Sounds interesting as an rpg setting. Consider it on top of my summer reading list.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Lyonesse is a solid, excellent fantasy series. I'm sad it's never going to get, say, a streaming series or something -- instead, it's always going to be another retread of Lord of the Rings, or some modern "overarching plotline" series. Or both at the same time, if we're talking about Shannara...

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Why do people try to make a make-believe world's magic consistent the real world's known physics? It isn't just that I don't think that can be done; it's that wanting to is already such a mistake. Magic is magical, not real.

In my opinion, this is kind of a fallacy. In a lot of settings, like the Cosmere, what we'd call "magic" is just a consequence of that universe having different laws of physics. D&D's magic system is constantly trying to explain and justify itself, with the stuff about "the Weave" and its different schools of magic. D&D's magic has rules, and therefore, discussing those rules and their implications is definitely valid.

I wonder if a certain strain of Fantasy fiction that tends to focus on the idea that magic has rules, and those rules can be understood, maybe shares some of the blame with D&D-type magic.

As a fan of Brandon Sanderson . . . yes. This is definitely part of the reason I started that thread. D&D's magic system is generally a pretty hard magic system, which means that its rules are mostly well-defined and internally consistent. The spells are even divided into 8 schools of magic and 10 levels (if you count cantrips). And since some magic is fairly easy to get (all High Elves get a wizard cantrip), it opens up a lot of questions about the implications of said magic. Especially in settings like Eberron, where the consequences of D&D's magic in the setting being realized is kind of the main draw of the setting for a lot of people (including me).

 

[prabe]

As a fan of Brandon Sanderson . . . yes. This is definitely part of the reason I started that thread. D&D's magic system is generally a pretty hard magic system, which means that its rules are mostly well-defined and internally consistent. The spells are even divided into 8 schools of magic and 10 levels (if you count cantrips). And since some magic is fairly easy to get (all High Elves get a wizard cantrip), it opens up a lot of questions about the implications of said magic. Especially in settings like Eberron, where the consequences of D&D's magic in the setting being realized is kind of the main draw of the setting for a lot of people (including me).

I thought that might be the case. I know Sanderson has a lot of fans (understatement) and while I was thinking about his approach I didn't want anyone who likes his fiction to feel called out.

 

[Ryujin]

In my opinion, this is kind of a fallacy. In a lot of settings, like the Cosmere, what we'd call "magic" is just a consequence of that universe having different laws of physics. D&D's magic system is constantly trying to explain and justify/explain itself, with the stuff about "the Weave" and its different schools of magic. D&D's magic has rules, and therefore, discussing those rules and their implications is definitely valid.

As a fan of Brandon Sanderson . . . yes. This is definitely part of the reason I started that thread. D&D's magic system is generally a pretty hard magic system, which means that its rules are mostly well-defined and internally consistent. The spells are even divided into 8 schools of magic and 10 levels (if you count cantrips). And since some magic is fairly easy to get (all High Elves get a wizard cantrip), it opens up a lot of questions about the implications of said magic. Especially in settings like Eberron, where the consequences of D&D's magic in the setting being realized is kind of the main draw of the setting for a lot of people (including me).

I vaguely remember reading a book in which magic was just the shouting out of things like chemical formulae. For example if you wanted to launch an acid spray at someone you would cry out, "H2SO4!" or the like. I can't remember which book this was in. Maybe it was one of the "Myth Adventures" series? Sounds like something that Phil Foglio would write.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

My Vance recommendation would be the short story "Mazirian the Magician" from the original Dying Earth collection, which is a very simple story of a Wizard foolishly using up all his spells for the day. Not only is it the ur source for Vancian magic, but I think it's also just some of the most finely-crafted fantasy prose I've ever read.

I like the other Dying Earth books as well, but that first one, and particularly the first four stories in it, are just on a different level in terms of stylishly using a very creative setting. Later Dying Earth works tended to move around to different places that were often minimally developed (it's a new chapter so Cugel shows up in another place for another picaresque adventure) but those first few stories all mostly share a consistent setting which is clearly pretty well developed but which Vance only shows us through obtuse allusions buried under spectacular prose.

 

[Parmandur]

Lyonesse is a solid, excellent fantasy series. I'm sad it's never going to get, say, a streaming series or something -- instead, it's always going to be another retread of Lord of the Rings, or some modern "overarching plotline" series. Or both at the same time, if we're talking about Shannara...

Shannara isn't really "modern," since it is older than I am.

 

[J.Quondam]

Shannara isn't really "modern," since it is older than I am.

Maybe it's Shanara that's modern, and you're just post-modern.

 

[Parmandur]

Maybe it's Shanara that's modern, and you're just post-modern.

Maybe! I just remember so distinctly how the copy of Shanara that I got from the Library in Middle School was like the oldest, most beat up book that I had ever seen in my life: must have been an early printing that was nigh 20 years old at the time.

Sword of Shanara was certainly a major milestone in Fantasy publishing, and definitely inaugurated a new era, where Lord of the Rings went from a popular but odd one-off into the Classic of Fantasy literature. But really Mosern Fantasy, IMO, starts 11 years latter with The Dragonbone Chair (the direct inspiration for Gane of Thrones, among many orher things, a stone cold classic) and really got cooking in 1990 when Eye of the World got published.