D&D 5E The Int 8 Party: A Solution?

The validity of my statement remains completely intact, actually. This isn’t the first time this thread has been had, either around here or elsewhere, as people try and keep houseruling ways for int to not suck.
Not remotely. That is, in fact, a common fallacy - Argumentum Ad Populum. Since you clearly don't know what that is, look it up.

Dualazi said:
Frankly, your incredibly tiresome assertion that the DM can put amusingly undue importance on int checks to save them from being useless is the same drivel we got in 3e when people complained about wizards being overpowered. If the DM has to address an entire sub-system, class, or ability score, that’s a tacit admission that there’s a problem.
Do feel free to explain why you imagine any of the long list of examples I provided are at all inappropriate rather than hurling infantile and poorly-considered insults.

Dualazi said:
Additionally, as stated up thread there’s no reason to prioritize it even if it WOULD be valuable, because either 5 PCs can roll (and one of them will likely hit the desired DC, unless all knowledge in your campaign is locked behind 20+ barriers), or the PCs just use a spell that answers the question for them, of which there are many.
The DM decides what ability checks are feasible, under which circumstances, and who is allowed to make them. The DM decides what success looks like. And, bit of DMing advice - if there's no opportunity cost for 5 different attempts at a check and there's virtually no risk of failure after 5 checks...then there's not really any point to making the check in the first place. The DM should just provide the information or other benefit gained from succeeding at the check. If the PCs are using spells then they are investing personal resources to make up for weaknesses. Oh noess...

Dualazi said:
You could go further as well, and look at released adventure paths for what the “estimated” use of knowledge skills are, since those are likely to have the greatest volume of players simply by nature of the AL, and can loosely be interpreted as how the game is ‘meant’ to be played, or at least the default assumption.
Yeah, I hate to break it to you - but the DM controls the flow of the overwhelming majority of information to the players even in AL games.
 

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If everybody wants to roll the same knowledge check, I treat it as a group check. If the characters fail, the right information are then buried under the wrong ones. And noone knows who remebered right or wrong.
 

Two personal examples of Intelligence having a substantial effect, just from my first 5e campaign (Lost Mine of Phandelver - spoilers):

1) The party didn't know how to keep the flameskull dead. They couldn't puzzle it from what they did know, but had they made a better check, they could have figured it out. This caused them to take a trip to Neverwinter to try to get info.

2) The party also wasn't sure how to deal with the spectator. I don't remember if they got to this point before heading back to Neverwinter, or if they had to make two trips.

So the party ends up taking two or three sessions, and over a week in game (with random encounters) traveling to and from the city to find someone more knowledgeable than themselves to help them deal with some situations. Now, this was fun (like it's supposed to be), but the fact remains that the Intelligence stat could have bypassed that entire detour scenario.

This is why Intelligence isn't a weak stat if applied to lore. Knowing or not knowing something can change the way the adventure plays out, just like defeating a foe or fleeing from it can change it.



Now this is a good criticism. But the issue here isn't Intelligence specific. It's a failure of the system to present fully satisfying rules in situations where everyone in the party can roll, but the success or failure of the entire party can be ensured or ruined by one character's roll.

My personal solution is not to let more than one character roll (or two if more than one have proficiency) and just randomly assign each additional character to use one of those d20 results (applying their own modifier to it).

Again, the point is that it isn't Intelligence that is the problem there, but some less than ideal party success/failure design.

See my post above. I do imagine a group int check as a discussion or vote in which only a few person are informed and the dumb people may actually overrule the more intelligent ones and even believe in that despite evidence... we have real world examples right now...
 

Not remotely. That is, in fact, a common fallacy - Argumentum Ad Populum. Since you clearly don't know what that is, look it up.

Oh I'm well aware of what it is. I'm also aware that there are people on this board who have extensive experience with D&D (some have played every edition ever released) and many of them have strong analytical skills as well. These are not uninformed popularity contests, and are not driven by white room theorycrafting, as shown by the OP who is dealing with it right now. We have real play examples and well articulated arguments as to why this is the case, which you have not sufficiently address.

Oh yeah, and if we're going to be slinging the fallacy accusations around, you yourself have engaged in arguing from fallacy.

Do feel free to explain why you imagine any of the long list of examples I provided are at all inappropriate rather than hurling infantile and poorly-considered insults.

You mean like I did? I made a huge post going over your examples on a case by case basis, and many of them were either irrelevant, pointless, or the wrong applications of stats/skills.

The DM decides what ability checks are feasible, under which circumstances, and who is allowed to make them. The DM decides what success looks like. And, bit of DMing advice - if there's no opportunity cost for 5 different attempts at a check and there's virtually no risk of failure after 5 checks...then there's not really any point to making the check in the first place. The DM should just provide the information or other benefit gained from succeeding at the check. If the PCs are using spells then they are investing personal resources to make up for weaknesses. Oh noess...

1) yeah, the DM can hypothetically make any system good with enough work. How much work is needed is an indicator of a problem in design, and I addressed this earlier. Just like class imbalance in 3rd edition, "the DM can fix it" is not a defense of poor design.
2) Outside of incredibly hackneyed logic or enforced split-second decision making, there's no reason there couldn't be attempts made by all members of the group to recall knowledge about something. If the party is researching in downtime or trying to decipher a mural there's no more reason the group fighter can't attempt it than the wizard could attempt a dangerous jump or compete in a triathlon.
3) Spells replacing a given stat do in fact reduce the value of that stat, particularly in situations where spell slot consumption isn't an issue.

Yeah, I hate to break it to you - but the DM controls the flow of the overwhelming majority of information to the players even in AL games.

That...wasn't even the argument I was making. My point was that we can look at AL play to determine how often players might reasonably make Int based checks and what effects that might have on an average game, which would let us see why people might decide other stats are more worthy of investment.
 

Only relevant if medusas are largely unknown in your campaign, and will only matter until the first gaze attack goes off.
Ill-considered presumption that accurate and expansive information regarding deadly and/or obscure monsters is readily available on your part. Check is relevant because it might inform the players that they can and maybe SHOULD avert their eyes before they start needing to save vs petrification.

Or they could just skip it (a recurring theme in int checks) and go after the big bad himself.
Ignorant presumption that they know who the BBEG is or have other leads. Or that there is no opportunity cost to making use of alternatives.

Here we go, already starting with arbitrary proficiency locking. Also trap detection falls under perception/wisdom so it only applies to if you care about the first two.
Intended meaning - one single check to differentiate the possibilities made per character. No locking involved. Perception/wisdom implies noticing hidden details, not differentiating or inferring information based on function.

Again, traps are wisdom (perception) checks. Int doesn’t help here.
Wrong, as listed in both PHB and DMG. Perception = notice new details; Investigation = drawing conclusions based on existing / already noticed details.

I can dig it up later but I’m pretty sure the section on identifying items stipulates anyone can do so with a sip, which doesn’t activate the effect of the potions. So no, the all int 8 party is quite able to tell what’s being made.
Presumes items present and/or already made which was NOT stated. Intended implication was that they were not - that the character is gathering information based purely on ingredients, retorts, glassware, and other tools or intermediary products.

Probably one of the closest to being legitimate, but only tenuously, since either the player will be in combat and the check doesn’t help (assuming they don’t have the necessary weapons) or it’s noncombat and group research attempts can discover it through volume of rolls. It’s also worth noting that magic items of any stripe bypass the damage immunity, so this check only matters at levels where players don’t have any.
Flat-out wrong. Checks in combat may be useful because they potentially affect tactics - use of particular weapons and/or attacks. Most parties aren't so loaded down with magic items that everyone possesses both magical melee and ranged weapons. Out of combat, you're making an idiotic presumption that 1) research is realistically feasible and that information is available (e.g. DM might decide that research is ineffective outside a library), 2) that research by anyone else would yield the same information.

You mean like insight? Yeah we have that skill already, it’s under wisdom.
Evidently you missed the subtext. Insight doesn't decipher codes.

Assuming you’ve engineered a situation like this that occurs immediately after entering another country (because even 8 int characters are unlikely to not know the royal crest), yet again you can simply have all group members roll for this.
Just like all of us here in the US would recognize all the state flags? Or those in the EU would recognize region-specific flags? Travelers from far off and exotic locations? Yeah...no.

This one is fine aside from arbitrary restrictions on proficiency, but it’s also the most textbook use of history and none of that info is particularly vital.
Both "vital" and its lesser cousin, "solidly useful," are dependent on the specific information - which was not provided. Making this yet another baseless presumption on your part. Noticing a theme here?

This one is chalked up to wizards not being anywhere near clear enough as to the intent and use of investigation vs. perception, but even the basic rules use a hidden door as an example of perception applying. Since wis is vastly more useful than Int, that is going to be the stat used for this more often than not.
Subjective value-judgments aside, there are clear differences in the skill descriptions in spite of some overlap and/or inconsistent use of the two skills in assorted adventures. Naturally YMMV, but how I personally run things would be to give different information based on what check was used. Perception might discern a draught of air, an oily smudge on the wall, or a suspicious joint/seam in the surroundings. Investigation would identify that as a secret door rather than a trap or mere sign of disturbance.

Would no one else have mentioned this? No captain giving them passage or guard at the gate? I guess this one applies, but it seems more like a temporary gotcha because I’m not sure the PC’s behavior would change much as a result.
Might or might not depending on whether the watch feels the need to inspect every single individual entering the town, whether the PCs have any familiarity with the area, how long they may have been there, whether the PCs know enough about the local culture to be aware of where laws are posted, and/or how inherently reasonable local law enforcement happens to be.

Arbitrary threshold and not terribly useful. Will probably allow for one better than normal breath weapon before the players adapt to it.
As well as what resistances the creature has. And how the creature behaves. Yes, I'm sure the PCs have prepared properly for dealing with all possible energy types and that an unresisted dragon's breath makes no difference :hmm: Arbitrary? Do you imagine that most lawyers would be able to describe how a loudspeaker works? That your average chef would be able to elaborate on the specifics of lung parenchyma? Do you imagine that a fantasy-medieval world with feuding magical wizards, powerful magical beings with vested interests in outsiders NOT learning their secrets, high average mortality rates, and even more complicated physical realities (due to magic) would be any different?

Why is the ‘per character’ even needed here? You get it in one shot or it breaks by your own admission.
Degree of failure.

Volume of rolls problem is still present, since they can just compare answers if they don’t start it. This is assuming of course that the device is nonmagical and they don’t just use identify or other divination magic, or simply shrug and leave.
Obviously, we know the device is unimportant because the PCs can't identify it, right? And surely if the device is magic or partly magic the PCs can just wave their fingers and completely know its entire function without any possible adverse effects because the that's the way most divination spells work and because device is obviously harmless, yes? Or they could just pool their thoughts together, because after losing fingers and suffering other unpleasant effects after repeatedly prodding the device they surely know which of them REALLY understands the thing, right? Did you actually bother thinking...any...of that through?

Basically, half of what you posted is either linked to another, better attribute, or is otherwise bypassed or ignored without significant consequence. None of these options elevate the stat above any of the others, and even if they were good uses in isolation I suspect their frequency would also be a detracting aspect of the comparison.
Hey, you know what? You're free to DM games as you see fit and interpret the rules as you prefer at your table. And that's fine. But a person doesn't have any business proclaiming that the system is broken when they personally choose to make intelligence-based checks worthless at their own table.
 
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NPCs use Int as a dump stat too. So over the whole campaign world, the average human Int is actually 6, not 10~11. The PCs are marginally smarter than the average NPC and should be role-played accordingly. Problem solved.

Brawndo -- it's got the electrolytes plants crave!
 

In 5E, Intelligence is a dump stat for almost everyone except Wizards. Because of this, we see entire parties full of Int 8 characters. In the game I play in, I gave my Circle of the Moon druid an Int of 12 just because I didn't want to play an Int 8 character -- he is the smartest character in the party because we have no wizard (everyone else is Int 8).

I don't care for this aesthetically, and in addition I think it poses some problems when most of the PLAYERS have an Int significantly above 8 (and then try to downplay their characters' low intelligence).

Would it break anything, or overpower the Wizard, if we houseruled that for every +1 modifier granted by high Int, a character got proficiency in a bonus skill of their choosing?

You can have the same situation with Charisma and even Wisdom.
Some players have a natural charisma way over their character stat.
Is there a problem if they dump stat charisma because they play fighter or barbarian?
But when they talk all the table listen and want to follow its lead.

Some players can have common sense and insight far superior to their character.
And again they play wisely for a 10 wisdom character.
Hopefully Wisdom is rarely dump to 8.
 

So I spoke with my players last night at our game and implemented the following:

* For every point of Int penalty, a character loses one language, skill, or tool of their choice.

* For every point of Int bonus, a character gains one language, CLASS skill, or tool of their choice.

* Wizards do not get any skills FROM THEIR CLASS (even with this, they will almost universally benefit from this houserule).

* Caster classes who have the option of taking a "prestidigitation" type cantrip (prestidigitation, druidcraft, thaumaturgy) get it for free.

(That last one isn't really related to the Int issue, it's just something that also bugged me for other reasons)


I allowed the players to rework their stats last night to account for the houserule.

The result?

* Wizard kept his Int of 22 (read the tome of knowledge found in OotA)

* Paladin kept her Int of 8

* Fighter kept his Int of 8

* Bard bumped his Int from 8 to 14

* Warlock kept his Int at 10

* Arcane Trickster kept his Int at 12


End result:

* Wizard had a net gain of +4 skills
* Fighter and Paladin lost 1 language each
* Arcane Trickster gained a couple of skills
* Bard made a significant change to his stats (the only character to do so) and picked up some extra skills


Observation: In this instance, the houserule resulted in a net gain of skills for the party, and one fewer IQ 80 character.
 

One comment on having Int factor into initiative -- isn't it true that in 5E, it is often preferable to act LATER in the round anyway? I know the high Dex characters in the games I am involved in often end up bitching about how high initiative "screws" them as often as it helps them, because of the rules on readied actions.
 

It's been errata'd that you have until the start of your next turn to use a readied action (PHB 193). I don't get how high initiative screws with readied actions; if anything, a low one would more with the interpretation that readied action only last until the end of the current turn. As for the high/low preference; I think it's different for each combat. I've had basically every variation I can imagine crop up in games I've been in. If I went before you, if he went next, if she was first, etc.
 

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