D&D 5E The New Class Tiers

[Krachek]

I think you should include level 11.
Fighter gain a third attack at this level, it is an important level that prepare the higher levels.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think you should include level 11.
Fighter gain a third attack at this level, it is an important level that prepare the higher levels.

It's where fighters start becoming good. If I rated classes bt tier its where I would bump them up a tier.

 

[Blue]

I'd like to point out that there should probably be a Tier 3 - the very few trap options. Basically Monk (Four Elements) and Ranger (Beastmaster).

Though to be pendantic, I think anyone coming from 3.x will have a conception about how far apart tiers are that is untrue in 5e, with 5e being a lot closer. If we were trying to calibrate so that a 3.5 player could directly compare, we should just have Tiers 2.5 and 3 (and 3.5 if we do want a 3rd tier like I mentioned).

 

[Zardnaar]

I'd like to point out that there should probably be a Tier 3 - the very few trap options. Basically Monk (Four Elements) and Ranger (Beastmaster).

Though to be pendantic, I think anyone coming from 3.x will have a conception about how far apart tiers are that is untrue in 5e, with 5e being a lot closer. If we were trying to calibrate so that a 3.5 player could directly compare, we should just have Tiers 2.5 and 3 (and 3.5 if we do want a 3rd tier like I mentioned).

I was thinking 3 tiers but due to some subclasses being better than others but weaker than another class I would probably use 5.

Might actually do this one day, 5 tiers all the PHB classes all 4 tiers of play.

 

[Gladius Legis]

If you're putting a premium on Lv. 1-10, the Scout is a vastly overrated and actually quite lousy Rogue archetype, almost down there with the Four Elements Monk and Beast Master Ranger.

 

[FrogReaver]

If Toll the Dead + Spiritual Weapon both land, that will be 14 damage on average.

For comparison a single attack from a Maul will typically do 2d6+3+1.32 = 11.32 damage in a round. With Polearm Master it's 1d10+1d4+6+1.3 = 15.3 damage a round. That's roughly as much as the Cleric does with Spiritual Weapon + Cantrip, although that doesn't include Maneuvers.

Also, you are not counting the damage improvement from Bless that I mentioned.

Suppose you bless three fighters who each hit 60% of the time without the spell. You raise their accuracy from 60% to 72.5% each. That's about a 20% increase in expected damage for each Fighter. So right off the bat, even if you don't do anything else, Blessing the party improves the damage by roughly 60% of a Fighter.

This can easily offset the advantage of Maneuvers (or other Fighter archetypes)

And other Cleric have their own bag of trick. The Nature Cleric can Shillelagh, the Arcana Cleric can Green Flame Blade / Booming Blade, Grave Cleric can Path to the Grave, Light can blast, Order gives other Fighters extra attacks. Only Life, Knowledge & Trickery don't add to DPS in some ways.

The Cleric is strong.

I didn't say the cleric wasn't good. Wizards are good too. Most everything is good.

But if you think 14 average in 2-3 fights per day is good in tier 1 then I don't think you understand optimization.

SS BM Fighter with a longbow can do 17.5 average damage at a comparable accuracy rate to the clerics all adventuring day long. A few times per day he can hit for 35.

The Variant Human SS CE BM Fighter with a hand cross bow can do 33 average damage at a comparable accuracy rate to your clerics all adventuring day long. He can do 49.5 when action surging. This is all by level 4.

 

[Hussar]

Action surge + precision attack + Sharpshooter feat makes fighter better at ranged combat.

Without feats the ranger is better though.

Yeah, this is a point that I never really buy.

Precision attack isn't going to make that much of a difference. Most attacks are hitting about 66% of the time. That's what the game is set at anyway. Given Archer specialization for either fighter or Ranger, that's actually probably higher. So, if 3/4 of your attacks already hit, then precision attack really only matters for those other 1/4 of attacks. If your adventuring day is 20 rounds of combat long, we're talking 10 attacks, at the absolute most. But, it's never going to turn all 10 into hits since at least some of those will miss be more than the Precision Attack will make up - there will be wasted Precision Attacks and attacks that simply cannot hit, no matter what.

So, essentially, we're talking about maybe 5 hits difference between the ranger and the BM fighter. But, the ranger either gets a +d8 on every round (or close enough) of combat or an extra attack a lot of times depending on the type of ranger.

Since they're both using SharpShooter, that's moot. And the SS+Xbow expert cheese only really applies for a couple of levels - the ranger can have both by 8th, the fighter by 6th. Not enough to make a difference.

Add to that, now, the ranger out and out blows the fighter out of the water out of combat - remember, no "Oh, we'll have out of combat feats" because you've used your feats for combat - and I really can't see how the fighter rates higher than a ranger.

In archery anyway. Sword and board? Ok, that's the paladin taking the cake there.

Fighters, IMO, really are falling a bit behind the other fighter types until at least 11th level.

 

[Gladius Legis]

So, if 3/4 of your attacks already hit, then precision attack really only matters for those other 1/4 of attacks. If your adventuring day is 20 rounds of combat long, we're talking 10 attacks, at the absolute most.

Well, except you're forgetting the rounds that you Action Surged in. If in your example adventuring day you took 2 short rests, you get 3 Action Surges that day, so you get an extra 6 attacks. So it's more like 11-12 attacks that Precision Attack can effect.

But, it's never going to turn all 10 into hits since at least some of those will miss be more than the Precision Attack will make up - there will be wasted Precision Attacks and attacks that simply cannot hit, no matter what.

Thing about Precision Attack is that you can choose when to use it, like during a round you Action Surged, when you're expressively trying to deal as much damage as you possibly can. A Precision Attack used during such a round is going to be very valuable. And you only use it to begin with when you can reasonably guess you missed only narrowly.

So, essentially, we're talking about maybe 5 hits difference between the ranger and the BM fighter. But, the ranger either gets a +d8 on every round (or close enough) of combat or an extra attack a lot of times depending on the type of ranger.

Turning a Sharpshooter-ed attack from a miss into a hit adds a lot more damage that round than a flat +d8. And again, Fighters get even more attacks in the round they Action Surge.

Sword and board? Ok, that's the paladin taking the cake there.

As an overall character I'd agree. But in specifically the combat pillar? An SnB Battle Master Fighter that took Riposte, Precision Attack and Trip Attack is at the very least competitive.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well, except you're forgetting the rounds that you Action Surged in. If in your example adventuring day you took 2 short rests, you get 3 Action Surges that day, so you get an extra 6 attacks. So it's more like 11-12 attacks that Precision Attack can effect.


Thing about Precision Attack is that you can choose when to use it, like during a round you Action Surged, when you're expressively trying to deal as much damage as you possibly can. A Precision Attack used during such a round is going to be very valuable. And you only use it to begin with when you can reasonably guess you missed only narrowly.


Turning a Sharpshooter-ed attack from a miss into a hit adds a lot more damage that round than a flat +d8. And again, Fighters get even more attacks in the round they Action Surge.


As an overall character I'd agree. But in specifically the combat pillar? An SnB Battle Master Fighter that took Riposte, Precision Attack and Trip Attack is at the very least competitive.

Sword and board battlemaster works well. Low levels it's very good even.

It's a lot harder to quantify how many attacks one gets off hunters quarry but a ranger can often have an extra d8 and D6 damage all/most of the time. And that's on top of sharpshooter etc that the fighter uses. Sharpshooter and action surge scale up dramatically at level 11 though.
Throw in the fact that Paladins and Rangers are debatable better at combat level 1 to 10 and are so much better out of it than fighters us the main thing. If a fighter even a single subclass is better its very marginal/debateable though. Level 1 is an exception though.

 

[Shiroiken]

Something to take into consideration is how the DM runs the game. A DM that allows the 5MWD (or only 2-3 combats per day) is going to see a lot more full casters. A DM that runs closer to 6-8 combats per day is going to see a lot more Fighters, Rogues, and Warlocks, because they get most of their stuff back on only Short Rests, and can even go a while with only a couple of short rests. If Feats are not allowed, the Fighter gets quite a bit worse, as the ASI will quickly max out Str/Dex then work on Con, rather than getting cool abilities. If multi-classing is not allowed, I think a couple of classes become less exciting, because they work best with combos (I've not played in a game without multi-classing, so I wouldn't know for sure).