D&D 5E The New Class Tiers

Heroes Feast is pretty good, I admit. But the rest is niche.

I mean, how often are you going to cast Word of Recall, Plane Shift & Ressurection, realistically?

Word of Recall & Plane Shift do roughly the same thing, teleport you away from trouble. And Revivify & Raise Dead are typically all the resurrection you need.

Compare that to the other spell lists:


  • Bard: Resurrection, Mass Suggestion, Eyebite, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Forcecage, Teleport, +2 magical secrets
  • Druid: Heroes' Feast, Plane Shift, Conjure Fey, Transport via Plants, Reverse Gravity, Antipathy/Sympathy, Animal Shapes, Feeblemind
  • Sorcerer: Plane Shift, Scatter, Chain Lightning, Mass Suggestion, Eyebite, Mental Prison, Teleport, Reverse Gravity
  • Wizard: Too many to count

Well that's why I said they stay put - I just don't think you can justify putting them in a lower rank - but that's why this is somewhat opinion based.

As for Wizards - yeah, their spell list is ridiculous and almost merits a - so what's above the top, because they should get that.
 

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Divination dice can whiff (you want to roll high or low) and you get very few of them. Once bard dive refresh on short rests and scale up to d8s they are almost as good as shield but you can do other stuff.

We are talking about tier 1. The bard has 3 dice for most of tier 1. The wizard has 2 divination dice. 2 divination dice > 3 bardic inspiration dice.

Also the diviner is only a single wizard subclass and it's probably the most powerful one. The most powerful wizard vs any old bard:).

Only because it's the most comparable to bard. Blade singer is also amazing. Abjuration is up there too. There's plenty of amazing tier 1 wizard subclasses.
 

We are talking about tier 1. The bard has 3 dice for most of tier 1. The wizard has 2 divination dice. 2 divination dice > 3 bardic inspiration dice.



Only because it's the most comparable to bard. Blade singer is also amazing. Abjuration is up there too. There's plenty of amazing tier 1 wizard subclasses.

At higher levels. Theirs 3 tier 1 subclasses for wizards IMHO.
 

Really?

They have the same early-level heavy-hitting CCs: Tasha's and Sleep.
Wizards have a strong Exploration pillar: Ritual Caster
Bards have a strong Social pillar: Charisma + Expertise
They both have strong Support abilities: Bardic Inspiration vs. Divination Dice

That sounds like a great case for placing wizards in whatever tier you place bards in

And it's not like the Bard Spell List is just a neutered version of the Wizard Spell List.
They have access to Faerie Fire, Bane, Heat Metal, and Zone of Truth.

Faerie Fire isn't very good in tier 1, in fact I think I'll start a thread about that. Heat Metal is vastly overrated due to it's highly situational nature. Zone of Truth is harder to guage. It's never a spell I've though of as strong but I could be missing something. Bane is terrible in tier 1.

I don't understand why you are calling out these spells as if they are something special for tier 1.

That's not to say the Wizard exclusives aren't good, too, but they don't have a monopoly on all the best spells.

For tier 1 they pretty much do.

Just Magic Missile, Shield, Find Familiar, Misty Step, and Mirror Image (and Rope Trick, but though I've been tempted, I've never personally taken that spell).

Blur, Enlarge/Reduce, Darkvision, Flaming Sphere, Levitate, Scorching Ray, Web, Spider Climb, fog cloud, thunderwave,

The Wizards massive Spell List is both a blessing and a curse. You have so many options to choose from, but you can only choose to learn so many of them, and you can prepare even less. In the end, whenever I'm playing a Wizard, I still end up picking the spells with the widest possible general applications. Except the best "general" spells are on everyone else's Spell List (for 1st and 2nd level Spells, I mean).

Sure. Rituals are a big part of early game wizards. If you aren't making use of them with their tons of known spells then I don't know much else that can be said.

I'll tell you what. Make an actual level 3 bard. Tell me what spells he knows. I'll make a level 3 wizard then and we can compare the capabilities of each class. Trying to compare anything to an undefined spell caster is a pain.
 

How are you getting "tons" of known spells for your tier 1 wizard. Our group is currently 3rd level and has about 100 gp/PC. Considering it's 50 gp/spell to put that in your book, "tons" of spells is pretty darn expensive for those levels. There are 16 level 1 and 2 wizard rituals, so, that's 800 gp to get them all. Our current wizard in the group has 2.

It's really, really going to depend on how free the DM is with gold as to how many rituals you are actually going to have.
 

How are you getting "tons" of known spells for your tier 1 wizard. Our group is currently 3rd level and has about 100 gp/PC. Considering it's 50 gp/spell to put that in your book, "tons" of spells is pretty darn expensive for those levels. There are 16 level 1 and 2 wizard rituals, so, that's 800 gp to get them all. Our current wizard in the group has 2.

It's really, really going to depend on how free the DM is with gold as to how many rituals you are actually going to have.

Leve 1 take 4 spells you always prepare take 2 rituals. Level 2 take 1 spell you always prepare and take 1 ritual. Level 3 take 1 spell you always prepare and 1 ritual. 4 rituals. 6 spells prepared. No gold. No extra spells.
 

Leve 1 take 4 spells you always prepare take 2 rituals. Level 2 take 1 spell you always prepare and take 1 ritual. Level 3 take 1 spell you always prepare and 1 ritual. 4 rituals. 6 spells prepared. No gold. No extra spells.

Yes, but, your point required knowing "tons" of rituals. Knowing 4 rituals out of the 20 (ish) for 1st and 2nd level spells hardly seems "tons". And, now you're restricted to 6 spells for regular casting.

1st level - Shield, Mage Armor, Sleep, Magic Missile
2nd level - Invisibility, web.
Cantrips: Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Silence

That's not a whole lot of versatility. Pretty standard layout, I'd think. Total snoozefest wizard but, hey, it gets the job done. But, those spells aren't doing a whole lot of exploring. Familiar Drone I suppose. Absolutely nothing for social pillar.

My point is that you're arguing that the wizard at these levels might be a bit stronger than I think.

But, then again, it's mostly a quibble. At 4th level, the spread between top and bottom between classes isn't really enough to make much of a difference. We're talking a very small spread.
 

Faerie Fire isn't very good in tier 1, in fact I think I'll start a thread about that. Heat Metal is vastly overrated due to it's highly situational nature. Zone of Truth is harder to guage. It's never a spell I've though of as strong but I could be missing something. Bane is terrible in tier 1.

Speaking as someone who has played both Bard and Druid, and Wizard for that matter, but that's irrelevant for this point, Faerie Fire is amazing. Less so if you're using the optional rules for Flanking, but about half of the groups I've played in don't.

Even so, advantage is especially valuable in Tier 1, where combat classes have fewer attacks, and thus fewer chances to hit. And because both you and the enemy have fairly low hp pools, every turn someone isn't landing a hit makes a big difference (i.e. the difference between whether the enemy goes down, or you do).

And Heat Metal is good precisely because of the situations it's useful for. i.e. An enemy with Heavy Armor or a Greatsword. Fighting someone with either of these two things in Tier 1 is terrifying. If they have both, it can be a nightmare. Your melee combatants only have 1 attack per round, each to hit someone with 16-18 AC. And Greatswords hit like trucks when they're aimed at anyone but your Barbarian.

Blur, Enlarge/Reduce, Darkvision, Flaming Sphere, Levitate, Scorching Ray, Web, Spider Climb, fog cloud, thunderwave,

Half of these spells are terrible.

Blur is a worse Mirror Image in every way. And sure, you can stack them together, but that's two of your three 2nd level Spell Slots (assuming 4th level) and two of your 8-9 Prepared spells. If you're being threatened, just Misty Step. Or disengage. Or dash. Or break line of sight. Or do anything else that doesn't involve knowing, preparing, and casting Blur.

Enlarge/Reduce really isn't great, but it can be fun and does have some utility, so... take it or leave it. And I say this as someone who has taken this spell in the past and then never used it, because you have much better things you can do with your concentration and a 2nd Level Spell Slot.

Darkvision? I saw Darkvision on your list and I had to double-check that it wasn't a Ritual, because I cannot fathom spending a 2nd level Spell Slot to give someone Darkvision. It's certainly inconvenient when a character in the party doesn't have it, but that's what torches are for. Or the Light Cantrip. Not your precious few 2nd level Spell Slots.

Flaming Sphere is good, that's true. So is Web, albeit a bit overrated, as well as DM and party dependent. Basically, that type of Crowd Control becomes significantly less useful if your enemies act intelligently, or your allies act stupidly. Scorching Ray is fine, too. Personally, I go with Dragon's Breath cast on my Familiar.

Spider Climb/Levitate: In my experience, this is how you aggro every archer in an encounter. They can smell that potential fall damage. They're good utility spells, though, albeit expensive. Levitate, at least, can double as offensive CC that targets Con, so it's more worth Preparing than Spider Climb is.

Fog Cloud is great for anyone with Blindsense or Tremorsense, but that's infinitely more likely to be one of your enemies, then it is anyone in your party.

Thunderwave has three problems. The first is that it's centered on you. The second is that it can damage and push back your allies. And the third is that everything within 300 ft heard you. Oh no, I'm in a bit of a pinch! Time to aggro everything! KABOOM! (I guess there's a fourth problem, which is that it's also on the Bard's Spell List)

I'll tell you what. Make an actual level 3 bard. Tell me what spells he knows. I'll make a level 3 wizard then and we can compare the capabilities of each class. Trying to compare anything to an undefined spell caster is a pain.

Alright. That'll be a fun game. Let's assume an the average stat-line (which conveniently gives us an 18 in our respective primary stats at level 1).
16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9

Valor Bard
Race: Half-Elf
Darkvision
Fey Ancestry: Advantage on Saves against Charms, and can't be put to Sleep.
Skill Versatility: Two extra Skill Proficiencies.

Ability Scores: Str 9 | Dex 15 | Con 14 | Int 10 | Wis 12 | Cha 18
HP: 24 [8+2d8(5+5)+(3*Con)]
AC: 17 [Chain Shirt + Shield + Dex)

Skill Proficiencies
Acrobatics +4 (Background)
Perception +3 (Background)
Perform +6 (Bard)
Persuasion +6 (Bard)
Deception +8 (Bard) -Expertise
Stealth +6 (Half-Elf) -Expertise
Survival +3 (Half-Elf)

Class Features
Spellcasting (2 Cantrips, 6 Spells Known)
Bardic Inspiration 4(d6)
Jack of All Trades (+1 to all non-proficient Skills)
Song of Rest (d6)
Expertise (Deception, Stealth)
Combat Inspiration (+Inspiration Dice to Damage or AC)

Spells Known
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Vicious Mockery
1st Level: Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers, Disguise Self
2nd Level: Invisibility, Heat Metal

If there's already a healer in the party, replace Healing Word with Heroism or Tasha's.
If Sleep is still useful at Level 3 (as this build assumes that Sleep was traded away at Level 3), keep it instead of either Disguise Self or Invisibility.
Replace Heat Metal with Phantasmal Force if you fight more dangerous beasts, than people.
 

5E you can't get lots of scrolls/wands and potions, might not even find that many rituals, so I'll be looking at power, utility, damage etc. Versatility is a bit over rated in 5E IMHO, the monsters tend to be easy, skill DCs are fairly low and you can get cheap wands of knock and the spell functions differently as well. The old 3.5 criteria no longer apply.

You can get cheap wands of knock, but you can't get lots of scroll/wands? Aren't those two statements contradictory?

And versatility has nothing to do with monsters being easy. It's about being able to solve a host of various problems.
 

Well that's why I said they stay put - I just don't think you can justify putting them in a lower rank - but that's why this is somewhat opinion based.

Every other class gets stronger but the Cleric stays roughly the same. Hence why the Cleric drops in rank.
 

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