D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Minigiant]

Yes, the super-secret poll that nobody leaked? Right. More likely it came to the attention of some corporate type in HASBRO that there was a "controversy" about alignment shortly after there was a big hullaballoo about diversity because of a posting by an ex employee*. They didn't want another "scandal" hurting the brand as they were setting up plans to expand beyond the TTRPG.

You can make assumptions all you want, but corporations hand down decisions from on high with little logic or reason all the time.

*I have no idea if the ex employee had a legitimate complaint or not; all we got was one side of the story.

Critical flaw is that whole scandal want about alignment.

Removing alignment doesn't solve that problem. Missies of alignment was a long running issue.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Critical flaw is that whole scandal want about alignment.

Removing alignment doesn't solve that problem. Missies of alignment was a long running issue.

Removing alignment doesn't completely solve the problem. It however solves a part of it and opens up a path for further solutions.

 

[Maxperson]

Removing alignment doesn't completely solve the problem. It however solves a part of it and opens up a path for further solutions.

That's like saying that getting rid of all the water in the world solves part of the issue of drowning. If you don't want to drown, just don't get into the water. Don't remove what a lot of other people enjoy doing, which is swimming.

 

[Cadence]

That's like saying that getting rid of all the water in the world solves part of the issue of drowning. If you don't want to drown, just don't get into the water. Don't remove what a lot of other people enjoy doing, which is swimming.

It feels like their analogy might be that sometimes you can't just add more chlorine to the pool, you need to drain the brackish water out and put something new in.

 

[Maxperson]

It feels like their analogy might be that sometimes you can't just add more chlorine to the pool, you need to drain the brackish water out and put something new in.

Sure, but alignment is nowhere near that, so it's a bad analogy. They jumped in a pool and saw a dead spider, and now want to drain it.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I'm increasingly convinced that the core problem isn't alignment, but changing ideas over what monsters represent.

In most games, but especially video games, monsters represent obstacles to be overcome that will otherwise cause a game over. That's the reason they exist at all. This draws upon how monsters were traditionally featured in mythology and folklore; threats to people that had to be overcome.

In recent years, though, at least some creatives have decided that monsters represent "the other", and as such have begun to identify with and humanize them more. As far as I can tell this is most common in literature at the moment, whereas most video games still seem comfortable to have monsters as obstacles.

The clearest solution I can see is to change intelligent monsters to make more of them either evil individuals who transformed because of their wickedness or devotion to evil entities (which is how 5E already treats minotaurs, medusas, and lamias by default; yuan-ti are unusual in that they can both be evil human cultists who transformed themselves or the descendants of said cultists) or creatures that come about by supernatural means (such as how 5E by default explains gnolls and many varieties of fey, such as redcaps and mites). Maybe trolls could become fey embodiments of nature's resilience and occasional savagery, and goblinoids could all start-out as cultists of Bane who are transformed in rituals, for example.

Basically, the default for intelligent monsters could be that they are made, not born. This would of course necessitate sweeping changes to D&D lore beyond anything even 4E did. It would, however, neatly solve the question of how there can possibly be so many intelligent creatures in the world with sustainable populations.

 

[Olfactatron]

I'm increasingly convinced that the core problem isn't alignment, but changing ideas over what monsters represent.

We actually talked about this point on Flail Forward last friday.

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[Chaosmancer]

This post from earlier in the thread jumped out at me, and I'm a bit surprised it didn't get more attention. (A note, this is not me wanting to get into an argument Max). This post was in response to Oofta who was talking about Strahd's alignment over the editions, with a comment to the effect of "it is easy, you just use the current edition"

It actually is fairly hard to use only 5e. I mean, this is the entirety of LG, "creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society." One vague sentence really isn't enough. You and I can do it, because we had editions with more to alignment that we just know. Someone who is brand new won't have much to go on.

I think this highlights one of the biggest issues with this discussion. Every defender of alignment that I have ever seen started in 3.X, 2e or earlier. It is almost universally something that people who have been playing with alignment for decades support.

However, many of us who are not for alignment are looking toward how it is implemented in 5e. And, it seems clear in this post (and Oofta I believe liked the post, so I will assume they agreed) that even people on the other side recognize that there is a barrier here for new players.

It is much much easier for someone to use alignment if they have been using it for decades and is intimately familiar with the lore that they are using. It is much harder to simply jump in with no knowledge of alignment or the monsters, and try and make it work.

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@Hexmage-EN I like that idea a lot. PErsonally, I've never really found medusa super interesting in DnD (Eberron is the exception) but the 5e write up gives me so much that I've been trying to find a way to fit a proto-medusa into the game for ages.

Minotaurs who are these blood-soaked monsters that were once human is far more terrifying to me than if they were just born flesh-eating monsters. And I love your idea for trolls, very cool.

And I also agree that it solves the "hundreds of sentient races in the world" problem very well.

 

[Maxperson]

I think this highlights one of the biggest issues with this discussion. Every defender of alignment that I have ever seen started in 3.X, 2e or earlier. It is almost universally something that people who have been playing with alignment for decades support.

However, many of us who are not for alignment are looking toward how it is implemented in 5e. And, it seems clear in this post (and Oofta I believe liked the post, so I will assume they agreed) that even people on the other side recognize that there is a barrier here for new players.

I don't think it's a barrier, so much as there is just very little to go on. It will still be a very rough aid, but it won't aid much, because there's not much there to go on. There is also very, very little for DMs and players to abuse.

Just like the vast majority defenders started with 3e or earlier, the vast majority of those who have issues are talking about things from 13+ years ago, when mechanics were still tied to alignment.

It is much much easier for someone to use alignment if they have been using it for decades and is intimately familiar with the lore that they are using. It is much harder to simply jump in with no knowledge of alignment or the monsters, and try and make it work.

It will work, just not very well. One sentence just isn't going to be much help.

 

[cbwjm]

I play a game Stellaris. Lots of online edgelords create the Imperium of Man or a Chapterhouse in MP games.

I normally create the transformers.