D&D 5E The Size of Books

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The corollary to the "single book"/"affordable and small" request is that the core of the game has to be slimmed down very significantly.

Taking 4e as a model, simply by cutting the level-range to just the Heroic tier cuts out sufficient powers, magic items, and monsters that it should be possible to compress to a single book. And there are savings that can be made by reducing font size and eliminating whitespace.

Or, alternately, look at the BECMI "Rules Cyclopedia".

A single-book version of D&D is certainly possible. Whether such an approach would be desirable (either for WotC or for the players) is rather more debatable.

(It's also worth noting, of course, that this refers only to the core of the game. The door should absolutely be left open for supplements adding any and all options that people care to have - and that's true whether the core is one, three, five, or fifty books.)

And do you really think just the "core" of the game is all what most people want?

I don't believe that for a second.

If the only way you print the "core" of the game is in one book and then put all the "modules" in other books... most modules of which most players will consider an important part of their respective games... then you've gained nothing. Each of those players will still be buying multiple books to reach a point where their game seems complete. All you've succeeded in doing is making it easy for the BECMI-type players to "one-stop-shop". But how many people who are going to buy this game are BECMI-type players? I would submit that they are very few.

Now, if WotC is fiscally able to print the game multiple different ways, then yeah, that's great for everybody. I myself was one of the many who said last year during the whole "beginner's box" debate that it might very well behoove WotC to release the product in two different methods-- the traditional hardcover three book model of the entire game split into PH, DMG, MM... and the three boxed-set (or Essentials-style small book if you'd prefer) player/DM combined product by each individual Tier. But then again... this was before the whole concept of "modules" were revealed-- modules that you'd need to include in each Tier boxed set, otherwise you're asking players to buy parts of the game upwards of six times, let alone three.

But if the choice on opening day is to buy the game in the traditional 3 book format of PH/DMG/MM or in a new 3 book Core/Modules/High Levels format... I think they'll be less likely to have players go ballistic and will actually make more money if they stick with the traditional one.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
*EDIT* Having just read your previous post, delericho... I do concede that if WotC pushed the DDI initiative as the main focus of their fiscal outlook, that a smaller book and smaller other books might be effective... because as you say... most of their money would be coming in through DDI subscriptions. Thus the need for the books to be the main revenue thrust is lessened and a different method of production could be tried.
 

Grimmjow

First Post
*EDIT* Having just read your previous post, delericho... I do concede that if WotC pushed the DDI initiative as the main focus of their fiscal outlook, that a smaller book and smaller other books might be effective... because as you say... most of their money would be coming in through DDI subscriptions. Thus the need for the books to be the main revenue thrust is lessened and a different method of production could be tried.

i would hate if they made little books but big internet stuff. I enjoy having all my D&D books in alphabetical order on the shelf in my room. I want the books to look impressive, after all, they are the first thing people see when they come in my room.
 

Zimith

Explorer
Oh gawd no. I like the book(s) to be as light as humanely possible. Give me 50 pages of core rules, at an absolute maximum! I hope for a slim book(let) of the absolute necessities of play, not a page more. The Pathfinder core rulebook was an absolute nightmare for my group, inb all its prettyness. We all have kids, jobs and a lot of other things that clutters our schedules and as it is we can't be bothered with a ton of rules to memorize. If other players want heavy tomes with extra rules, suitable for their playstyle, I'm all for it though, but I hope for a a slim option.:D
 

delericho

Legend
i would hate if they made little books but big internet stuff. I enjoy having all my D&D books in alphabetical order on the shelf in my room. I want the books to look impressive, after all, they are the first thing people see when they come in my room.

I know how you feel. I don't really care for reading electronic materials, and am extremely wary of buying eBooks and the like. Indeed, I've never bought such a thing. And I do rather like my 3.5e library.

But...

The reality is that that library is a real PitA. Even the most flavourful of the books in there has been read exactly once, and is highly unlikely to ever be read again. The only things I reference are things like spells, magic items, and monsters. But with the material spread across dozens of books and hundreds of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and with no unified index, finding things is a pain. The net effect is that the overwhelming majority doesn't get used, will never get used, and won't even be considered for use, simply because I can't lay my hands on it. That's really not efficient in any sense.

(And that's only the problem if I'm hosting the game. If I have to lug all that stuff to someone else's house to play... yeah, I'm not doing that.)

What I would dearly love would be for WotC to do an "encyclopedia version" of the game - reprint everything as-is, but reorganised by topic (a book with all the classes, some books with all the monsters listed in strict alphabetical order, etc). If they did that, I would rebuy everything, even at a cost of $1,000. (But they would need to guarantee it would never be added to, modified, or even heavily errata-ed. It really would need to be a definitive reference.)

But even that would be less good than an 'encyclopedia' I could search automatically, I could select and organise as I needed... basically, an 3e version of the DDI Compendium would be a godsend. I would subscribe to DDI sight-unseen just for that. (And that's without even getting into a Character Builder, a Monster Builder, a character management app, and other possible tools.)

Plus, do it electronically and they don't need to promise it will never be expanded - it's trivial to add 'pages' into the middle of an electronic encyclopedia in a way that it just isn't with a hard-copy version. (The failed 2nd Ed Monstrous Compendium notwithstanding.)

The truth is that while physical books look better, and while they're better for reading, electronic versions are just better for everything else. And they're cheaper to produce and maintain, they can be tied to a subscription for an ongoing revenue stream, and they allow the DDI offering to increase in value as the edition goes on.

(And paper is worse than that, too. In 3e, the biggest selling items outside of the core rulebooks were almost certainly the splatbooks. And people didn't really buy "Complete Warrior" for the advice on playing fighters, or whatever - they bought them for the new classes, prestige classes, magic items, etc; the stuff to add to their character. With 4e, though, all that material was automatically available through DDI. Producing the electronic version almost certainly canibalised sales of their biggest-selling supplements, and did so to quite a large extent. Indeed, that's probably a factor in the 'failure' of 4e - enough people used DDI instead of the books that the books didn't really succeed, but not quite enough subscribed to DDI to make that a success in itself. In effect, they competed with themselves and turned one success into two failures.)

Incidentally, going back to my "if I were in charge at WotC" thesis, I think I might well be inclined to get rid of the e-magazines as such, in favour of an ever-expanding library of articles (all extensively cross-referenced, tagged, and hyperlinked, of course), with new content being produced on a regular schedule. But the key thing I would be inclined to do would be to offer all (seriously, 100%) of the non-setting-specific* 'fluff' material for free download... but keep the 'crunch' material blocked off behind the paywall. That way, the fluff acts as an advertisement for the contents, but all the bits that people (esp. players) really want - the new monsters, the powers for their characters, etc - are held back.

And sure, that means that if you're interested but not actually playing D&D at present, you get access to an enormous amount of material for free. But it means that as soon as anyone is playing, they will want to subscribe and they will want to maintain a subscription throughout. That should be enough to sustain the service (frankly, it really needs to!).

As I said previously, under this model I wouldn't eliminate printed support entirely. But it would come after the electronic version (and after the errata had been applied), and would consist of reprints of that material. And given that the print runs would necessarily be small, it would be priced at a premium as well.

* The settings, of course, would remain behind the paywall. If you want to know about Eberron, you have to pay for it somehow!

(And just in case it isn't obvious: all of this is IMO, of course!)
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
I just want to point out that the current playtest is 149 pages. That is excluding the Bestiary, character sheet, and adventures, but including the DM guidelines and magic items. That number is also without art, but includes a large font size and generous white-space.

While the content isn't complete yet, we're still well within the capacity of a single book. Savage Worlds Deluxe (which is known for being a small and light game) is 160 pages, and they managed to turn that into a $10 digest.
 

Razjah

Explorer
If they made D&D a $10 Savage Worlds style book, I think it would outsell everything with no problems. Getting money back could be an issue, but the product would be awesome.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
  • 300+ pages
  • 300+ pages w/ really small supplemental books
  • 200+ pages
  • 200+ pages w/ smalled supplemental books
  • 150+ pages
  • 150+ pages w/ slightly smaller supplemental books
  • 1-3 times a year
  • 4-6 times a year
  • 7-9 times a year
  • 10-12 times a year

For core rules, I really want a GOOD SIZE because I want the core game to be broad and versatile enough so that it can be played from level 1 to last level without supplements, and with enough variety on characters.

For practical reasons, I don't like books over 300 pages, unless those books are just for "offline reading" (and even then, I like reading in bed, so I wouldn't want my books to be too heavy...), but if I am going to consult the books during game, they shouldn't be bigger than that.

Therefore I'm sticking to my preferred format of 3 core books of ~300 pages each.

For supplements, I don't care... if the topic covered is narrow, then let the book be small, otherwise bigger. There can be 100, 200 or 300 books, I don't mind as long as the topic gets the size it deserves, no fillers and no missed opportunities.

There are books the topic of which doesn't imply any size, e.g. monster manuals. In that case I'd prefer a 200-300 range, again ~300 being probably the best.

Frequency of supplements: uhm... doesn't matter much to me, I'm not a heavy buyer I guess, I tend to buy what I can use. So if they put out too many too quickly, I won't have time to use them so I certainly won't buy them either. But I guess that heavy gamers need more so let it be.

No comments about the $ cost... the cheaper the more I'll buy, it's actually quite simple. :)
 

variant

Adventurer
I know how you feel. I don't really care for reading electronic materials, and am extremely wary of buying eBooks and the like. Indeed, I've never bought such a thing. And I do rather like my 3.5e library.

But...

The reality is that that library is a real PitA. Even the most flavourful of the books in there has been read exactly once, and is highly unlikely to ever be read again. The only things I reference are things like spells, magic items, and monsters. But with the material spread across dozens of books and hundreds of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and with no unified index, finding things is a pain. The net effect is that the overwhelming majority doesn't get used, will never get used, and won't even be considered for use, simply because I can't lay my hands on it. That's really not efficient in any sense.

(And that's only the problem if I'm hosting the game. If I have to lug all that stuff to someone else's house to play... yeah, I'm not doing that.)

What I would dearly love would be for WotC to do an "encyclopedia version" of the game - reprint everything as-is, but reorganised by topic (a book with all the classes, some books with all the monsters listed in strict alphabetical order, etc). If they did that, I would rebuy everything, even at a cost of $1,000. (But they would need to guarantee it would never be added to, modified, or even heavily errata-ed. It really would need to be a definitive reference.)

But even that would be less good than an 'encyclopedia' I could search automatically, I could select and organise as I needed... basically, an 3e version of the DDI Compendium would be a godsend. I would subscribe to DDI sight-unseen just for that. (And that's without even getting into a Character Builder, a Monster Builder, a character management app, and other possible tools.)

Plus, do it electronically and they don't need to promise it will never be expanded - it's trivial to add 'pages' into the middle of an electronic encyclopedia in a way that it just isn't with a hard-copy version. (The failed 2nd Ed Monstrous Compendium notwithstanding.)

The truth is that while physical books look better, and while they're better for reading, electronic versions are just better for everything else. And they're cheaper to produce and maintain, they can be tied to a subscription for an ongoing revenue stream, and they allow the DDI offering to increase in value as the edition goes on.

(And paper is worse than that, too. In 3e, the biggest selling items outside of the core rulebooks were almost certainly the splatbooks. And people didn't really buy "Complete Warrior" for the advice on playing fighters, or whatever - they bought them for the new classes, prestige classes, magic items, etc; the stuff to add to their character. With 4e, though, all that material was automatically available through DDI. Producing the electronic version almost certainly canibalised sales of their biggest-selling supplements, and did so to quite a large extent. Indeed, that's probably a factor in the 'failure' of 4e - enough people used DDI instead of the books that the books didn't really succeed, but not quite enough subscribed to DDI to make that a success in itself. In effect, they competed with themselves and turned one success into two failures.)

Incidentally, going back to my "if I were in charge at WotC" thesis, I think I might well be inclined to get rid of the e-magazines as such, in favour of an ever-expanding library of articles (all extensively cross-referenced, tagged, and hyperlinked, of course), with new content being produced on a regular schedule. But the key thing I would be inclined to do would be to offer all (seriously, 100%) of the non-setting-specific* 'fluff' material for free download... but keep the 'crunch' material blocked off behind the paywall. That way, the fluff acts as an advertisement for the contents, but all the bits that people (esp. players) really want - the new monsters, the powers for their characters, etc - are held back.

And sure, that means that if you're interested but not actually playing D&D at present, you get access to an enormous amount of material for free. But it means that as soon as anyone is playing, they will want to subscribe and they will want to maintain a subscription throughout. That should be enough to sustain the service (frankly, it really needs to!).

As I said previously, under this model I wouldn't eliminate printed support entirely. But it would come after the electronic version (and after the errata had been applied), and would consist of reprints of that material. And given that the print runs would necessarily be small, it would be priced at a premium as well.

* The settings, of course, would remain behind the paywall. If you want to know about Eberron, you have to pay for it somehow!

(And just in case it isn't obvious: all of this is IMO, of course!)

I will never touch DDI or anything like it. It is one of the reasons I never invested in 4e. Sorry, but your plan sucks. I play D&D at my table with pencil and paper and a digital format does nothing for me.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I was not a fan of the reduced page count in late 3e books, but more importantly, I was not a fan of the reduced amount of content in those pages. There's a lot of filler in those late 3e books, player/DM/monster books alike. Advice for selecting feats. "Encounter building". NPC stat blocks after every prestige class. Prestige classes. Small niche classes, spells, and monsters. The trend was that you got less and less substantive content for each page. A trend which seems to have continued.

I think making good use of the pages you have is more important than how many pages that is.
 

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