The Stealthy Game A GM Plays With Himself

[Vegepygmy]

For passive, check the skill description. Under the Spot or Listen skill, see the Action section.

"Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action."

"Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner (for example, when someone tries to sneak past you while hidden, or you move into a new area), you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action."

So again, I ask you: where do the rules say you get to make a check each round?

For active, the general rules of skill use apply.

Obviously, since an active Spot or Listen check is a move action, you can make an active check each round. I'm not questioning that.

So, your players have thier characters going cross country. Due to the terrain, they're moving 12 miles per day. You roll a random encounter for that day which ends up being a panther that will stalk the PCs as prey.

At what point do you give your players that ONE check to detect the panther?

I'd make it as soon as I decide the panther is going to stalk the PCs as prey. If the panther wins, the PCs don't notice it until the panther reveals itself. If one or more PCs win, I'd probably roll a d12 and that would be the mile along their day's travel that they notice a panther is stalking them.

Is it at 100 yards, where the panther could be seen but the negative spot mods make it unlikely for the PCs?

The way I do it is I make the Hide and Spot checks, then calculate backwards to determine the distance at which the Spot check succeeded. So if the panther gets a 16 on its Hide check and the most alert PC gets a 23 on his Spot check, the PC spots the panther at (23 - 16 = 7) x 10 = 70 feet.

Or obviously, if the panther can only get within 100 feet before having to leave its position of cover or concealment, the PCs (automatically) spot it at that distance.

 

[HoboGod]

Dead on to what RUMBLETiGER said, but more to the point: players don't know the details of their failed spot checks by rolling poorly on a spot check. Don't think so much as a DM, take a second to put yourself in the mind of a player.

DM: "You're walking threw an old churchyard, everyone roll spot checks."
Cleric: ((This is where the DM gives us a clue in our quest, or maybe some nifty detail about the church. In any case, I have to roll high! Phooey, I rolled a 5.)) "With my spot modifier, I got a 9."
DM: "You didn't notice it"
Rogue: ((I bet there's a trap... DAMN, I rolled a 6)) "I got an 11"
DM: "You don't notice it, either."
Wizard: ((There's probably some treasure here, with everyone failing their rolls it will be all mine! Oh no, I only rolled a 6!)) "I got a crummy 8."
DM: "Sorry."
Fighter: ((Oh, hell, things are about to get hairy, maybe a horde of zombies. Ouch, they'll get a surprise round for sure, I only rolled a 7.)) "I also got a 9."
DM: "Nobody notices it and you all continue moving."


In this case, sure, somebody guesses that a battle is going to happen, but they have no idea what kind of monster and even if they did, they wouldn't be any better prepared for it. Failing a spot check doesn't tingle your players' spider senses, it injects mystery, fear, and paranoia into an overconfident party taking on level-based encounters.

 

[PureGoldx58]

Dead on to what RUMBLETiGER said, but more to the point: players don't know the details of their failed spot checks by rolling poorly on a spot check. Don't think so much as a DM, take a second to put yourself in the mind of a player.

DM: "You're walking threw an old churchyard, everyone roll spot checks."
Cleric: ((This is where the DM gives us a clue in our quest, or maybe some nifty detail about the church. In any case, I have to roll high! Phooey, I rolled a 5.)) "With my spot modifier, I got a 9."
DM: "You didn't notice it"
Rogue: ((I bet there's a trap... DAMN, I rolled a 6)) "I got an 11"
DM: "You don't notice it, either."
Wizard: ((There's probably some treasure here, with everyone failing their rolls it will be all mine! Oh no, I only rolled a 6!)) "I got a crummy 8."
DM: "Sorry."
Fighter: ((Oh, hell, things are about to get hairy, maybe a horde of zombies. Ouch, they'll get a surprise round for sure, I only rolled a 7.)) "I also got a 9."
DM: "Nobody notices it and you all continue moving."


In this case, sure, somebody guesses that a battle is going to happen, but they have no idea what kind of monster and even if they did, they wouldn't be any better prepared for it. Failing a spot check doesn't tingle your players' spider senses, it injects mystery, fear, and paranoia into an overconfident party taking on level-based encounters.

I like this approach and use it as it is generally more engaging and what my players want. Although if they ALL fail I describe the area in great detail to make them think that was what I wanted them to see.

 

[Water Bob]

"Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action."


So again, I ask you: where do the rules say you get to make a check each round?

You can't be serious.... Do you actually think a character cannot make a check each round?

First off, in that first paragraph you quoted, if something is a Move Action, and you can attempt a Move Action each round, doesn't that tell you right there that it can be attempted each round?

In the section of the rulebook that explains skill use--that also tells you that this type of check can be attempted each round.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this. It's pretty obvious.

Obviously, since an active Spot or Listen check is a move action, you can make an active check each round. I'm not questioning that.

When you ask, "Where do the rules say you get to make a check each round?" You're not questioning whether a Listen or Spot check can be made each round?

I'm assuming now you're talking about a player initiated skill check? That's what you're calling an "active" check?

If you want to talk about just "passive" checks, then simply look at the first words I quoted from you above...

Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action.

"Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner" means that you get a Listen check, every round, if someone is moving, and you have a chance to hear them.

It works the same in reverse, too. If the PC is sneaking around, he makes his checks every round to see if the guard hears him.

I'd make it as soon as I decide the panther is going to stalk the PCs as prey. If the panther wins, the PCs don't notice it until the panther reveals itself.

The panther could decide to track the PCs as prey from quite a long distance and track for quite a while, waiting for a good opportunity to take one of them out.

If the panther stalks his prey for an hour, you're still giving the PCs a single check to detect him?

 

[Water Bob]

I see the comment under the Listen skill about rolling only one die when there are several Listeners. This helps with the number of die rolls the GM has to make behind the screen. If there's 4 PCs in the party, this means that we're talking only two dice throws: One for Listen and one for Spot, for the entire party, that can be taken against a DC (instead of rolling for the Move Silent and Hide of the target).

That speeds things up a bit, and is less to manage.

The Take 10 idea, mentioned upthread, is a good idea, too. Since we're not in combat yet, I assume that the rules allow for the Take 10 to be used.





The last question, which is what Vegypygmy is questioning above, is: How often should Stealth checks be made?

If you're on a large time scale, with the PCs traveling X miles per hour, per day, per week, and the characters are being followed, should the Stealth check to detect someone following the PCs be made once per hour, per day, or per week?

If not, then how often?

What about when not using any time scale and just moving the game along in scenes as you would when exploring an old ruin before combat. How often is fair for a Stealth check?

And even in combat, Listen checks are appropriate EACH ROUND as long as the target moves? A Spot check, EACH ROUND, as long as the target is visible?

 

[Vegepygmy]

You can't be serious....

I assure you I am quite serious.

Do you actually think a character cannot make a check each round?

No, I've explicitly agreed that they can (by making an active Spot or Listen check). What I'm questioning is your belief that the rules say they get (a free) one every round.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this. It's pretty obvious.

It appears we're discussing it because you didn't read my previous post, where I wrote:

Obviously, since an active Spot or Listen check is a move action, you can make an active check each round. I'm not questioning that.

When you ask, "Where do the rules say you get to make a check each round?" You're not questioning whether a Listen or Spot check can be made each round?

Correct. I am not questioning whether a Listen or Spot check can be made each round. I'm questioning whether you automatically get one each round.

I'm assuming now you're talking about a player initiated skill check? That's what you're calling an "active" check?

Yes.

If you want to talk about just "passive" checks, then simply look at the first words I quoted from you above...

Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action.

"Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner" means that you get a Listen check, every round, if someone is moving,

Prove it. Cite the rule. Where do the rules say you make an opposed Move Silently vs. Listen check every round?

It works the same in reverse, too. If the PC is sneaking around, he makes his checks every round to see if the guard hears him.

Where do the rules say that? All you have to do is cite the rule that says this and you win. (Not that this is a contest or anything. I'm open to the possibility that this rule is written somewhere and I've just never noticed it. But I think you're making an assumption that isn't supported by any actual text. So please, prove me wrong!)

If the panther stalks his prey for an hour, you're still giving the PCs a single check to detect him?

Correct.

 

[Water Bob]

Prove it. Cite the rule. Where do the rules say you make an opposed Move Silently vs. Listen check every round?

I showed you. It's in green in the previous post.

Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive mannerm you can make a Listen check without using an action.

There's your proof.

If a character moves all three rounds, don't you have a chance to hear him....each round?

Yes, you do.

And the rule above says that you can make a Listen check every time you have a chance to hear something.



Round 1. Bad guy moves. Does your character have a chance to hear it in a reactive manner?

Yes. By the rule in green above. Roll the Listen check.



Round 2. Bad guy continues to move. Is it possible that your character hears him in a purely reactive manner?

Yes. By the rule in green above. Roll the Listen check.


Round 3. Bad guy is still moving. You get a Listen check when? When you have a chance to hear the bad guy in a reactive manner. Can you hear him move? Maybe--you get a check to find out.

See the rule in green above? Roll the Listen check.


It's pretty clear.

Where do the rules say that? All you have to do is cite the rule that says this and you win. (Not that this is a contest or anything. I'm open to the possibility that this rule is written somewhere and I've just never noticed it. But I think you're making an assumption that isn't supported by any actual text. So please, prove me wrong!)

OK, look at Move Silently. Under the Action section.

Move Silently is part of movement. If you can move every round, then you can attempt to Move Silently every round.

If you can move Silently every round, then someone can attempt to hear you every round, rolling the Listen check.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I showed you. It's in green in the previous post.

Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive mannerm you can make a Listen check without using an action.

There's your proof.

If a character moves all three rounds, don't you have a chance to hear him....each round?

Yes, you do.

Then you should have no trouble citing the rule that says you do. Otherwise, you're making an assumption--and one that leads to an absurd result: it becomes ridiculously difficult to successfully sneak up on someone, because they have to succeed on only one Spot or Listen check while you have to succeed on all of your Hide and Move Silently checks.

"To sneak up on someone, you make a Move Silently check. Anyone who might hear you can make a Listen check to react to your presence." (PHB, page 64.)

My interpretation of that is you make one Move Silently check and anyone who might hear you gets one (reactive) Listen check. That's their (one) chance to hear you without using an action.

To prove me wrong, you'll have to do more than simply assert that I'm wrong. You need to cite the text that shows I'm wrong.

Round 1. Bad guy moves. Does your character have a chance to hear it in a reactive manner?

Yes. By the rule in green above. Roll the Listen check.

It says nothing about whether you have a chance to hear it in a reactive manner. It is completely silent on that issue. You're seeing something that simply isn't there.

What it says is that you can make a Listen check without using an action every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner. But when do you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner? You're assuming you have that chance every round, but you haven't cited the rule that backs your assumption up.

Round 2. Bad guy continues to move. Is it possible that your character hears him in a purely reactive manner?

Yes. By the rule in green above. Roll the Listen check.

Again, where do the rules say you make an opposed check every round?

Round 3. Bad guy is still moving. You get a Listen check when? When you have a chance to hear the bad guy in a reactive manner. Can you hear him move? Maybe--you get a check to find out.

You get one check, sure. But where does it say you get one every round?

See the rule in green above? Roll the Listen check.

I see the rule in green, and it doesn't say anything about rolling every round.

It's pretty clear.

It may seem so to you, but I read the same text and reach a very different conclusion--and mine achieves a result much closer to what you say you want from the rules than yours does, so whose interpretation actually makes more sense?

OK, look at Move Silently. Under the Action section.

Move Silently is part of movement. If you can move every round, then you can attempt to Move Silently every round.

Again, you're seeing things that simply aren't there. It says (in its entirety): "Action: None. A Move Silently check is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action."

See that? It's not an action at all. None. It's simply part of something else you do. That's all the text is saying there. That does not in any way imply that you have to make a Move Silently check every round.

"You can use this skill to sneak up behind an enemy or to slink away without being noticed."

Player: "I want to sneak up behind this enemy."
DM: "Okay, make a Move Silently check."
Player: (rolls die) "18."
DM: (rolls enemy's Listen check) "He doesn't seem to hear you."
Player's character then sneaks up on the enemy from whatever distance away he was.

If you can move Silently every round, then someone can attempt to hear you every round, rolling the Listen check.

If you can just cite the rule that says you must make a Move Silently check every round, I'll concede the point.

 

[Water Bob]

Again, you're seeing things that simply aren't there. It says (in its entirety): "Action: None. A Move Silently check is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action."

See that? It's not an action at all. None. It's simply part of something else you do. That's all the text is saying there. That does not in any way imply that you have to make a Move Silently check every round.

You're the one not reading it correctly. It's plain to me that Move Silently is a Move Action, combined with movement. This is not unlike drawing your weapon is considered a Move Action. If you stand in place and draw your weapon, it takes the place of your Move action. But, if you also Move, the rule allows you to draw and move at the same time and still do a Standard Action.

But, hey, I tire of trying to show you how wrong your interpretation is. It's your game. Play it the way you want.



EDIT: I'll leave you with this to chew on. The Move Silently skill gives us modifiers based on distance moved. If you move at half Speed or less, there is no penalty. If you move at greater than half but less that your Speed, then you get a -5 penalty to your Move Silent check. If you move faster than that, you take a -20 on your check.

So, ask yourself: Why is the penalty based on move if it's not meant to be thrown each round?

Your thief character is at the mouth of a cave, and far in the back of the cave is a torch lit dias with a golden sword on it. That's 300' away. There are guards moving all about the place. And, you want to sneak in and steal the sword.

What are you going to do each round? You're going to roll Move Silent and Hide vs. the guards' Listen and Spot. Each round.

 

[Vegepygmy]

EDIT: I'll leave you with this to chew on. The Move Silently skill gives us modifiers based on distance moved.

No, it doesn't. It gives us modifiers based on speed.

If you move at half Speed or less, there is no penalty. If you move at greater than half but less that your Speed, then you get a -5 penalty to your Move Silent check. If you move faster than that, you take a -20 on your check.

So, ask yourself: Why is the penalty based on move if it's not meant to be thrown each round?

It's not based "on move" or on distance moved. The rules say: "You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging."

So if, while trying to move silently, you move too quickly, you take a penalty. That in no way implies that you make skill checks every round.

Your thief character is at the mouth of a cave, and far in the back of the cave is a torch lit dias with a golden sword on it. That's 300' away. There are guards moving all about the place. And, you want to sneak in and steal the sword.

What are you going to do each round? You're going to roll Move Silent and Hide vs. the guards' Listen and Spot. Each round.

Not unless you can point to the rule that requires it. Which, it seems, you cannot.

But hey, do what you want. Insist on interpreting the stealth rules in such a way that no one will choose to play a "stealthy type" because they have little to no hope of actually being able to sneak up on anything. Whatever works for you, my friend.