Theandric Saga OOC

[Yair]

Yair, the Volkmar you have posted is the older version, not the last (updated) one I sent you.

Please resend the update, then; this is the last version I have on file.

 

[Nzld]

No sense beating around the bush. I've gone ahead and had Valeria submit her proposal for the charter in the IC thread.

 

[MummyKitty]

Nzld, the designs for everything are really great. Some of these plans seem really ambitious, which would make Titus very excited about them. However, given how complex these structures would be, it seems like it would take some time to build them, not to mention needing quite a crew of workmen to haul the stone and wood, etc, up the cliff. I guess we'd be able to use some magic to take shortcuts....

Roman building techniques should be able to handle these structures, it would probably be a matter of manpower. In particular the excavations for the underground structures would be quite labor intensive, it seems to me. Just wondering how much resources we have. If we build something this extensive, we're going to have a hard time hiding it, especially if the Knights come around. Fortified or not they will probably be interested.

I haven't had as much time as I had hoped over the past few days to post or work on my thoughts on the charter, which I had hoped to do before reading yours. So, I'm going to work on mine over the weekend, then read yours and post on it on Sunday night.

Thanks for all the hard work on the designs. While I think my drawing skills might be a little better than Yair's , I don't have any kind of CAD program for producing the neat computer rendered ones like you do.

 

[Yair]

While I think my drawing skills might be a little better than Yair's , I don't have any kind of CAD program for producing the neat computer rendered ones like you do.

What, suddenly no one appreciates my artistic skills

I'll hold off posting in the charter-IC thread until Titus does, I think it makes more sense.
(I'll post in the IC thread today.)

Constructing the designed covenant is indeed labor-intensive so there would be no way to hide its construction from the mundanes. Just the caravans of equipment and workers....
I would caution you that while Roman construction techniques are certainly capable of constructing such a building, I'm not sure medieval ones are. Titus, being a student of architecture, can be assumed to be versed in the Roman techniques; but he'll need to teach them to the mundane workers.

Magic can greatly aid the construction, to the point of doing everything, but the more you want to use it the more expensive vis-wise and level-wise it becomes. Some examples, for scale:
Conjuring the Mystic Tower, CrTe 35 Ritual

by extension, I came up with the following but I'm not sure it's right...
Conjuring the Mystic Structure
CrTe 40 Ritual; R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Group
An elaborate stone structure, formed in accordance with mundane building techniques, rises out of the ground. The structure is up to 54,000 cubic feet in size, and up to 80 feet tall at its highest point. You determine the design of the chambers within.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Group, +3 size, +3 elaborate design)

The Mage's Pick, PeTe 15
R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Part
Up to 100 cubic feet of the earth (including dirt or stone) is destroyd. Controlling the shape of the destroyed volume requires a Finesse roll; an EF 6 suffices for a simple area's excavation, EF 9 is required for a more elaborate excavation such as several intersecting tunnels, and EF 12 or more is required for more elaborate excavations still. The caster can frely choose to excavate less material than the maximum allowed.
The resulting structure is not necessarily stable, and may collapse on itself.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +2 size)

 

[Nzld]

Conjuring the Mystic Structure
CrTe 40 Ritual; R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Group
An elaborate stone structure, formed in accordance with mundane building techniques, rises out of the ground. The structure is up to 54,000 cubic feet in size, and up to 80 feet tall at its highest point. You determine the design of the chambers within.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Group, +3 size, +3 elaborate design)

I think the parameters of the spell are correct for the size of the structure I designed, though I am at a loss as to how you derived the number 54,000 cubic feet. I assume a pace to equate to about 3 feet. What assumption did you use?

By my calculations, the volume of the structure (if the entire mass was a single block of stone) is 162,000 cubic feet, or 6000 cubic paces (once again, 1 pace = 3 feet). As a base Group is 10 standard Individuals, our base is then 10 cubic paces, with three raises for Size +3, that allots us 10,000 cubic paces of stone. Since the majority of the structure is hollow and/or open space, we scarcely need that amount, but would likely need more than 1000 cubic paces (which is all Size +2 would allot).

This spell can be done as Group, I suppose, though the actual structure is all one building, not individual buildings. Alternately, it could be Individual, but with Size +4. That would, of course, lower it to Level 35, which would be on par with Conjuring the Mystic Tower (although that spell, I believe, is not necessarily calculated correctly. It has a Size +4, but for the amount of stone actually required for the dimensions specified, it only needs a Size +3 (unless, of course, you want a pillar of solid stone).

The Mage's Pick, PeTe 15
R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Part
Up to 100 cubic feet of the earth (including dirt or stone) is destroyd. Controlling the shape of the destroyed volume requires a Finesse roll; an EF 6 suffices for a simple area's excavation, EF 9 is required for a more elaborate excavation such as several intersecting tunnels, and EF 12 or more is required for more elaborate excavations still. The caster can frely choose to excavate less material than the maximum allowed.
The resulting structure is not necessarily stable, and may collapse on itself.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +2 size)

As the base Individual for stone is 1 cubic pace, not 1 cubic foot (which is for metal), this seems miscalculated. My calculation for paces (as above) is 1 pace = 3 feet. As is, then, I calculate this spell would destroy 100 cubic paces (or 2700 cubic feet) of stone and dirt. A more efficient version, then, would be Size +1 to destroy 10 cubic paces (or 270 cubic feet) of stone and dirt, at PeTe 10.

This version is feasible for spontaneous casting, which is how I anticipated the underground portion would actually be excavated.

 

[Nzld]

Nzld, the designs for everything are really great. Some of these plans seem really ambitious, which would make Titus very excited about them. However, given how complex these structures would be, it seems like it would take some time to build them, not to mention needing quite a crew of workmen to haul the stone and wood, etc, up the cliff. I guess we'd be able to use some magic to take shortcuts....

Roman building techniques should be able to handle these structures, it would probably be a matter of manpower. In particular the excavations for the underground structures would be quite labor intensive, it seems to me. Just wondering how much resources we have. If we build something this extensive, we're going to have a hard time hiding it, especially if the Knights come around. Fortified or not they will probably be interested.

The designs are for a completed covenant, so I do not anticipate us reaching that point anytime soon... or even, perhaps, before Tribunal. My goal is to get an idea for what we want to achieve, and then we can determine how best to strive for it (and I can make new maps to show the current status as we progress from our first wooden huts, to our first stone room, etc.).

Ultimately, I just want to get an idea of what we all want in the covenant. In earlier posts you mentioned Titus wanted Roman-style architecture, and then further mentioned gardens (assumed expansive Roman gardens) and even Roman baths. This implied to me that he defintely does want an impressive structure, and not some minor shantys in the hopes of remaining secreted away.

Strahd mentioned a domed structure over the stone ring for our meetings. In part, this correlates to my idea of having the council chamber centered on the rings (though underground) to honor any mystical connections to the magic of the stones, blah blah, etc. etc. But I didn't think it wise to build a dome over the stones themselves, so I added the central tower with its domed roof and oculus.

Anyway, the covenant may prove to be a living thing and not evolve how we envision it anyway. There are many years ahead of us with which it might take on a life and character all its own.

As I mentioned previously, I don't think we can long remain secret regardless of what we build, unless we truly live like hermits, or move everything completely underground. So that is not a major factor in my design (or in Valeria's IC opinions, when they come up). She would rather live in splendor and luxury and find some mundane means of "disguising" the truth of the covenant, rather than try to hide the covenant itself. As a member of the Apple Gild, I think that fits with her better, anyway.

FYI: As mentioned in my post on Yair's spell ideas, I anticipate the majority of the underground excavation to be done magically with PeTe (spontaneously, most likely, though I don't think it would be too hard for Titus to create an appropriate spell). The underground area isn't all that massive, so would not take that long to Perdo away. The only mundane need would be to have miners/engineers to make it structurally sound, flesh out the rooms, and add the final touches, etc. Ultimately, I don't see this as being the most labor intensive aspect of the covenant.

 

[Yair]

I think the parameters of the spell are correct for the size of the structure I designed, though I am at a loss as to how you derived the number 54,000 cubic feet. I assume a pace to equate to about 3 feet. What assumption did you use?

By my calculations, the volume of the structure (if the entire mass was a single block of stone) is 162,000 cubic feet, or 6000 cubic paces (once again, 1 pace = 3 feet). As a base Group is 10 standard Individuals, our base is then 10 cubic paces, with three raises for Size +3, that allots us 10,000 cubic paces of stone. Since the majority of the structure is hollow and/or open space, we scarcely need that amount, but would likely need more than 1000 cubic paces (which is all Size +2 would allot).

Ah, see, I suffer from those numbers again. I blame the British; I think I counted 1 pace=1 feet. Down with Imperial measures! Go metric already!
You are right, of course. My numbers were based on the size of the mass of rock formed by Conjuring the Mystic Tower. Still, the end result is the same spell (creating up to 10,000 cubic paces of stone).

This spell can be done as Group, I suppose, though the actual structure is all one building, not individual buildings. Alternately, it could be Individual, but with Size +4. That would, of course, lower it to Level 35, which would be on par with Conjuring the Mystic Tower (although that spell, I believe, is not necessarily calculated correctly. It has a Size +4, but for the amount of stone actually required for the dimensions specified, it only needs a Size +3 (unless, of course, you want a pillar of solid stone).

Perhaps they are counting the foundations too (20 extra feet)?
A building is a Structure, not an Individual (see PeTe's "castle-raiser" spell, for example), and a Structure must exist before the spell - hence, we can't directly Creo the building. Instead, we Creo the parts and put them together into a building. And the building has many parts, hence Group...

As the base Individual for stone is 1 cubic pace, not 1 cubic foot (which is for metal), this seems miscalculated. My calculation for paces (as above) is 1 pace = 3 feet. As is, then, I calculate this spell would destroy 100 cubic paces (or 2700 cubic feet) of stone and dirt. A more efficient version, then, would be Size +1 to destroy 10 cubic paces (or 270 cubic feet) of stone and dirt, at PeTe 10.

This version is feasible for spontaneous casting, which is how I anticipated the underground portion would actually be excavated.

Again, you are absolutely correct.

 

[Nzld]

Perhaps they are counting the foundations too (20 extra feet)?

I took that into consideration... even counting the additional mass for the foundation, I feel the CtMT should only be Size+3, not Size +4. Not that it matters, I am comfortable with it being a level 35 spell and wouldn't expect it to be only a level 30 spell... just arguing the mechanics... and level 40 for the Teneo version isn't too much to ask for, either.

A building is a Structure, not an Individual (see PeTe's "castle-raiser" spell, for example), and a Structure must exist before the spell - hence, we can't directly Creo the building. Instead, we Creo the parts and put them together into a building. And the building has many parts, hence Group...

I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree on the logic. A building is a Structure, but for purposes of Targets, a non-existent building is not a Structure. Also, as a Group is a collection of Individuals, if a building cannot be considered an Individual, than neither can it be considered a Group, and we know that Creo conjuration spells can only have one or the other as Target. I also don't think it can be argued that a building has many parts, and thus requires Group, as the very spell we are mimicking (Conjuring the Mystical Tower) also creates a building (the tower) and that building surely has multiple parts, as well, yet it is Individual for the purposes of Target.

As for End of the Mighty Castle, it uses Target: Structure as a convenience, and possibly to allow it to specifically destroy all stone within the structure as well, but I believe that within the rules, it could have been written with Target: Individual, but would have then required Size +3 to make up for the loss of size inherent to Target: Structure (×1000), so the spell level would be the same.

 

[Yair]

I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree on the logic. A building is a Structure, but for purposes of Targets, a non-existent building is not a Structure.

So far, we agree.

Also, as a Group is a collection of Individuals, if a building cannot be considered an Individual, than neither can it be considered a Group, and we know that Creo conjuration spells can only have one or the other as Target.

Here we differ. If a building is a collection of several blocks of stone that are each Individual target, then I reckon it can be considered a Group. So a building may very well not be an Individual while being a Group. Now, as for why it is a collection instead of an Individual to begin with, the next part...

I also don't think it can be argued that a building has many parts, and thus requires Group, as the very spell we are mimicking (Conjuring the Mystical Tower) also creates a building (the tower) and that building surely has multiple parts, as well, yet it is Individual for the purposes of Target.

Ahh, not so. The spell specifically states the tower is made from one block of stone. The spell creates ONE stone, albeit formed in a fancy and elaborate shape, and is hence an Individual. Our spell creates many different stones, and hence requires a Group target.

As for End of the Mighty Castle, it uses Target: Structure as a convenience, and possibly to allow it to specifically destroy all stone within the structure as well, but I believe that within the rules, it could have been written with Target: Individual, but would have then required Size +3 to make up for the loss of size inherent to Target: Structure (×1000), so the spell level would be the same.

Mmm, with this logic there is no sense to the Room or Structure or even Boundary targets. Why target a Boundary to affect, say, a field - when what I want to do is affect the Individual field? Mythically, it makes perfect sense for it to be an Individual.
I prefer to be more strict about it. If it makes sense to treat the target as a Boundary/Strucutre/Room, it should be treated that way instead of being treated as an Individual.

 

[MummyKitty]

Titus will be happy to learn the spell to form the underground caverns, especially if it results in an intricate labyrinthine structure. Likewise the above ground, he too would prefer luxery even though it may not be the most prudent course, given the potentially hostile neighbors. But, I envision Titus as someone who loves grand ideas and doesn't necessarily think through all the consequences. As long as the end result is a beautiful structure, he'll be happy. The prudent course of action would probably be to finish the underground structure first, then once we're established and have worked out alliances with our neighbors (and solved the problem of the stag) then build the more visible above-ground buildings.