They Killed Cap!

[Vigilance]

Right but that history is part of what makes Cap a great character. It's part of what makes him special.

Most comic characters' pasts are fluid. Folks forget, mostly because Marvel has happily let these facts slide into obscurity, but at one time Reed Richards and Ben Grimm were WWII veterans.

But Cap has a period of time no one can take away from him, and that's an integral part of the character. His origin doesn't always take place "ten years ago".

Characters like Punisher and Iron Man have had some rocky periods primarily because they were also rooted historically, to time periods that don't really resonate with readers anymore.

Iron Man was the ultimate Cold Warrior and Punisher was the crazy Viet Nam vet. Those characters aren't really ones in which many folks identify with anymore. The Cold War is over and Viet Nam seems like a much more distant memory now than it was.

Not so WWII. WWII is still a huge part of how we as a nation define ourselves. Instead of making him less relevant, anchoring Cap in WWII makes him more relevant.

And of course, being the "man out of time" is a huge part of what makes Captain America a compelling character to me.

Also, if you want to get rid of Cap for having his roots in WWII, then you also need to get rid of Nick Fury.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

I don't think Cap will stay dead. However, I wonder if he'll be "on hold" for a year or so, much like Thor was after his death.

Honestly, I think Pro-Reg will wind up being a failure, because something will happen to prove it wrong. Perhaps it'll be Silent War, or maybe World War Hulk. Something that will show that even will all of the heroes banding together to fight a common menace, they still can't win. Or, the inapplicability of Registration for beings not from Earth at all (and whose powers could easily trump those of any Registration heroes).

Plus, I'm really disappointed no major villains have taken advantage of all of this (other than Kingpin, but his stuff's not that big scale-wise in comparison). Why isn't Magento stirring up descent, esp. amongst the mutant community? Why isn't Ultron taking advantage of the chaos to wipe out humanity? Why isn't Dr. Doom (of ALL villains) not taking advantage of this?

I mean, c'mon! I'm waiting to see Doom really mess with Reed, perhaps tormenting Reed on how his actions drove away Sue, Johnny, and Ben. Or Doom gaining control over the Extremis tech in Tony, making Iron Man his unwitting pawn (and maybe even taking control over the nanotech in the Thunderbolts).

I can't help but think of other issues that may come about from this, too. The bit with Black Panther & Storm during Civil War brought up the issue of international relations with the whole Pro-Reg stuff regarding supers. I have to wonder if they'll expand on that--maybe other nations may forbid U.S. supers from entering their countries, & vice-versa.

I just can't help but think that the Superhero Registration stuff will ultimately be shown to be a big waste of taxpayer money, & it'll go down the drain. Maybe most of the 50 State Initiative heroes will be wiped out thanks to World War Hulk, Silent War, or the war with Atlantis. Maybe there'll be more Stamford-like incidents despite the effort to put measures in place to avoid them.

Overall, I'm not happy with Marvel. If it was just the storylines, I might be able to deal with it. Throw in the bad continuity, as well as delays... Well, don't make mine Marvel. It's a shame, too--I used to like Iron Man. I despise the character now w/ Civil War (or, at least, how he's been written). I expect the whole Extremis thing will be the scapegoat for his behavior, but honestly, I won't buy it.

I'm glad Thor's coming back, but I hope it isn't a flub. Don't have my hopes too high, though.

 

[Klaus]

It's the freaking HULK!

Do you think he's going to go through a sober, intellectual process to select his targets?

I mean... this is the second time you've basically said this, so you really think Hulk's going to sit down, FBI style, with a big chart with pictures.

<snip>

Cmon guys. Hulk. Smash. He's not going to be using smart bombs to make sure he ONLY gets the people MOST responsible.

He's mad as hell, and he's going to get those guys.

Who are those guys? Dunno, don't care.

This is the Hulk who led a rebellion, defeated a tyrant and became a beloved leader of an entire planet, complete with taking a wife. This is the Hulk who allowed a parasitic race to feed off *him* instead of preying on the populace.

The Hulk SAW those responsible: Nick Fury (who sent him to space to begin with), Reed Richards (who actually addressed him through tape), Tony Stark (who was standing next to Reed) and Stephen Strange (who was standing at the back).

In the previews we saw, Hulk used a holographic projector to address the people of NYC, in full gladiator panoply. Hardly a "Hulk Smash" moment.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

The Hulk SAW those responsible: Nick Fury (who sent him to space to begin with), Reed Richards (who actually addressed him through tape), Tony Stark (who was standing next to Reed) and Stephen Strange (who was standing at the back).

Also, I'm fairly certain that the actual Nick Fury was in hiding at that point as a result of the events in Secret War so Reed and Tony used a LMD Nick Fury to lure Hulk into the wormhole trap.

 

[DM_Matt]

They killed Cap when they made him stop being a nationalist. Better he stay dead than the abomination that the current leadership of Marvel has turned him into.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

The Hulk SAW those responsible: Nick Fury (who sent him to space to begin with), Reed Richards (who actually addressed him through tape), Tony Stark (who was standing next to Reed) and Stephen Strange (who was standing at the back).

Don't forget that Black Bolt was there, too.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

How about Steve Rogers is dead, long live Captain America? The man dies, but the dream lives on?

Ah, but as demonstrated during Gruenwald's "replacement Cap" arc back in the 80s, there is more to being Captain America than just putting on the tights and slinging the shield. Heck, there have been many other Caps already (Steve's the first, but there have been 4 or 5 others, IIRC- John Walker, the Spirit of '76, the Patriot, the Grand Director, and a man named Roscoe), but the enduring legacy has always been that of Steve Rogers, because of all that he represents. Which is why his death won't last and he will return to the mantle eventually.

 

[Klaus]

Actually, according to The Truth, there was a black Captain America before Steve Rogers.

 

[Black Omega]

Actually, according to The Truth, there was a black Captain America before Steve Rogers.

Have a link on this?

 

[billd91]

I'm surprised there's all this emphasis on Steve Rogers being alive.

How about Steve Rogers is dead, long live Captain America? The man dies, but the dream lives on? You know, Cap was born in the Great Depression, something some of our grandfathers can't even say. For a character that's supposed to quintessentially human, that's just getting harder to buy into. A new reader comes into comics and says something like "so, Captain America, he's like immortal or something?", to which the veteran has to explain, "nah, he's human, but he's been bobbing around in an iceberg for the last...(mentally calculates) fifty years now, I guess".

Maybe it's just time for the mantle to pass on. Humans are mortal. They have to pass on their legacies for them to endure. Maybe instead of a walking piece of nostalgia from a war that's history to most of us, we now get a Cap that's actually a part of this century: a fireman who survived the World Trade Center attack, a soldier that served in Iraq, and so forth.

I can see what you're saying about Cap's experience becoming more and more remote from the present. But even with all of the military actions and interventions since WWII, there is nothing that approaches the awesome iconography of the WWII American GI and American responses to WWII and its immediate legacy. I can gudgingly acknowledge that, eventually, Captain America, should he continue, may have to have a more contemporary origin. But I don't think that time is really now, not when the sources of that iconography, the actual men and women of the time, are shuffling off the mortal coil.
My prediction is we'll see Steve Rogers continue as Captain America at some point and in some form other than just the Ultimates line.
Plus, I think it would be better to see Steve Rogers pass on the mantle of Captain America himself when he decides it's time to hang up the shield. Perhaps at the point when the rest of his generation has passed into memory.