They Killed Cap!

[billd91]

Re: Cap's fighting skills
Kind of a tricky area. Cap's supposed to be the perfect fighter, the ultimate hand-to-hand combatant. He does do a lot of throws and legsweeps and such, but he can't perform the semi-superhuman stunts that guys like Shang-Chi and Iron First are capable of.

Don't mistake flashy with effective. Cap's brand of martial arts seems to be more simple and direct than elaborate.

 

[kroh]

Question: Did Captain America actually receive martial arts training beyond the usual US Military training?

According to wikipedia, he is an expert in boxing, jujutsu, as well as judo. He combines all of this into his gymnastic ability to produce his particular way of fighting.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Klaus]

According to wikipedia, he is an expert in boxing, jujutsu, as well as judo. He combines all of this into his gymnastic ability to produce his particular way of fighting.

Regards,
Walt

I asked because in the JLA/Avengers mini, Batman and Captain America were in a standstill of sorts. If the Wikipedia entry is correct, Batman could've floored Captain.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Okay, Cap stays, but Steve Rogers's out. There is a reason why he wears a mask. We can always replace the person behind it.

And yet, in all the times that Captain America has been replaced, they've inevitably returned the mantle to Steve Rogers. Why? Quite possibly because it isn't about just the costume, but the man wearing it.

Hopefully, there'll be a new Cap and he will be executed well enough that the character will be popular enough to make the transition. Of course, if that doesn't happen, then Cap will be resussitated and killed off again at some future point, until he gets an heir with traction.

Again, though- in regards to "an heir with traction"- the reason that other Caps haven't taken in the past is because Steve Rogers as Captain America represents something that none of those other characters have. His idealism and conviction- among his other traits- have made him the standout person to wear the mantle time and again. In order to have someone replace him in the hearts and minds of the comic community, you have to craft a character of similar principle and moral character, essentially creating the character you've already got.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and that a writer (with more vision than I have, certainly) couldn't do it, just that it has yet to be done, and that its more difficult than it seems.

You keep pointing to DC, but even their attempts at "Legacy" characters don't always take. Azrael didn't take as Batman, Jason Todd didn't take as Robin, the new Aquaman may or may not take (jury's still out), Kyle Rayner didn't take as Green Lantern- despite what is one of the most directed and long-term attempts to create and support a legacy character. Thus far, Wally West stands out as almost an anomaly in the effort to pass along the mantle, and that was always a rocky road (and there are still people clamoring for a return of Barry Allen to this day).

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I asked because in the JLA/Avengers mini, Batman and Captain America were in a standstill of sorts. If the Wikipedia entry is correct, Batman could've floored Captain.

Really? All I see there is this quote:

Batman faces Captain America. Using a series of feints and blocks, the two test each other to see what each is capable of. Batman announces that Captain America would likely defeat him, but that it would take him a long time to do it.

Which is pretty much my recollection (hardly a flooring to be sure, and not in Bats' favor). In any case, wikipedia of course, is hardly an authority.

As I recall reading Kurt's take on Cap vs. Batman (which he deliberately left vague), his take has always been that Cap would win in a straight out confrontation, unless Batman had time to prepare, in which case he'd pull out a victory.

It's never been completely clear where Cap's martial arts training came from, but he's regarded as having expert training in many different forms of unarmed combat. He and Bats are very similar in their physical prowess, actually, and both men exercise and train regularly and intensively, so it would be an interesting fight. Cap- being peak human- would/should have an edge, physically, though. Bats has all his gadgets and tricks, as well as just a much more brilliant mind.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Just to inject some levity into the discussion...

 

[Rackhir]

We already know who's going to assume the mantle of Captain America.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I asked because in the JLA/Avengers mini, Batman and Captain America were in a standstill of sorts. If the Wikipedia entry is correct, Batman could've floored Captain.

Well I would say Cap is a lot faster, stronger, and tougher than Bats since Bats is just well trained and Cap is the pinnacle of human physical perfection. Plus Cap was killing Nazis before Batman was even a twinkle in his mothers eye.

 

[Umbran]

Bats has all his gadgets and tricks, as well as just a much more brilliant mind.

Bats has it all over Cap in terms of detective work and science, sure, so wiht preparation he can pull out things Cap wouldn't expect. But in terms of battle tactics at fight time, not so much. Cap's also a master tactician. There's a reason that he tended to lead the Avengers in battle - he knows what the heck he's doing in a fight.

 

[Vigilance]

Thus far, Wally West stands out as almost an anomaly in the effort to pass along the mantle, and that was always a rocky road (and there are still people clamoring for a return of Barry Allen to this day).

And their attempt to have Wally West pass on the Flash mantle to Bart Allen has been a big failure.

Also in most cases, DC hasn't passed off its characters willy nilly. It's passed them to proven characters (sidekicks) and usually after interest in a character has waned. For example most of the handoffs were done after all the Golden Age books were cancelled and later brought back in the Silver Age, when supers were more popular again.

This is the reason Marvel brought Cap back (the resurgence of superheroes) but Stan thought the character was too strong and came up with a way to have it be the same Cap.

Stan rebooted PLENTY of Golden Age characters (the Human Torch springs to mind here). Good enough for Stan, good enough for me.