D&D 5E Three Saves

[Yaarel]

Here is a way to arrange the six abilities into three saves that works well.

The benefit of this arrangement is, the descriptions cohere with early D&D traditions.



Reflex: Strength & Dexterity
• Strength (big athletic body movements)
• Dexterity (small sensitive movements)

Fortitude: Constitution & Charisma
• Constitution (physical toughness, immune system, persevering against exhaustion)
• Charisma (luck, innate magic, fate - in D&D 1e Gygax defines these as nonphysical hp)

Will: Intelligence & Wisdom
• Intelligence (knowledgeability, analytic search, reason)
• Wisdom (sensory perception, instinctive willpower)

 

[Ath'kethin]

How early a D&D tradition are you referencing? I don't see an easy spot for a save vs. rod/staff/wand.

 

[Demetrios1453]

How eatlrlybabD&D tradition are you referencing? I don't see an easy spot for a save vs. rod/staff/wand.

I'm curious about that too, 3rd Edition is hardly "early". "Early" traditions for saves would be:


Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell

The current six saves are a closer (in number at least) to the original five, rather than the 3e three saves...

 

[Yaarel]

Gary Gygax, D&D 1e, Dungeon Masters Guide.

"
HIT POINTS

It is unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to assume that [if] a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must [therefore] assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain!

Why then the increase in hit points?

Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses - and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat, the ‘sixth sense’, which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

"

Gygax emphasizes it is impossible to believe that hit points are entirely physical. In the formative development of the D&D game, he understood ‘hit points’ to include both physical toughness and nonphysical luck.

Luck, psychic power (sixth sense), arcane magic, and divine miracle, are central factors explaining the survivability of a hero.

Gygax also mentions ‘skill at combat’, simply learning by experience how to survive in combat.



In the Original Post.

Combat skill ≈ class leveling

Physical toughness ≈ Constitution

Luck ≈ Charisma



In the description by Gygax, he assigns the physical ability of Constitution to also be responsible for luck and psychic, arcane, and divine power.

In light of the evolution of D&D traditions, including the invention of a systematized ‘Fortitude save’ and its use of Constitution, plus the use of Charisma for luck and innate magic, it is more useful to assign Constitution to the strictly physical aspects of hit points and Charisma for the more lucky and magical aspects of hit points.

In D&D 5e, hit points continue the Gygaxian view, and are defined as: ‘a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck.’

Here, Constitution continues the physical aspects of survivability and Charisma continues the mental and lucky aspects.

Ideally, both Constitution and Charisma would factor into the ‘Death saves’ when reaching 0 hit points. However, in 5e, none of the abilities modify the Death saves. So both Constitution and Charisma are normally inapplicable.



In the context of 5e saves, Constitution corresponds to the physical aspects of ‘Fortitude’ while Charisma corresponds to the mental and lucky aspects of ‘Fortitude’.

 

[Nellisir]

How early a D&D tradition are you referencing? I don't see an easy spot for a save vs. rod/staff/wand.

I think "earlier" would be a better reading than "early". Three saves are "earlier" than now, but not "early".

 

[Yaarel]

I think "earlier" would be a better reading than "early". Three saves are "earlier" than now, but not "early".

Perhaps I should have said, ‘the descriptions of these saves are rooted in early D&D traditions’. The inspiration comes from 1e, but are in light of developments upto the time of 5e.

 

[Yaarel]

Coupling the abilities for the saves, this way, has neat implications.



Will (Intelligence-Wisdom) the save versus Charm. Intelligence is a logic that is unswayed by irrational compulsions and Wisdom is an instinctive willpower that stays true to nature.

Wisdom is keen sensory perception that notices what others might miss, and Intelligence is analytical search that understands the implications of what one does notice and extrapolate deeper info. Together Will (Intelligence-Wisdom) is the save versus Illusion.

But also Will (Intelligence-Wisdom) is the ‘save’ versus Hiding. And functions as the ‘Passive Perception’ mechanic.

 

[Yaarel]

Fortitude (Constitution-Charisma) is the save versus impact. One couldnt avoid the hit, and must simply survive it. Fortitude includes both physical and nonphysical survivability, from its Constitution and Charisma respectively. Thus, Fortitude is the save versus raw psychic damage. For example, certain kinds of phantasmal illusions relate to psychosomatic injuries that cause actual physical damage where the injuries are imagined. Certain psychic blasts overload the neurons and can deal physical brain damage. Fortitude saves against such blends of physical and mental damage.

So, Fortitude saves versus raw psychic damage. But Will saves versus mental manipulation.

 

[Yaarel]

"Early" traditions for saves would be:

Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell

Petrification or Polymorph ≈ Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic → Fortitude (Con-Cha)

Breath Weapon ≈ Fireball ≈ area targeting (cone, sphere, line) → Reflex (Str-Dex)

Rod, Staff or Wand ≈ Spell → save depends on which spell



Arguably, there were only three saves in D&D 1e. With certain saves being lesser degrees of other saves.

 

[Yaarel]

Reflex (Strength-Dexterity)

Both the Strength ability and the Dexterity ability contribute to the Reflex save.

Strength is big athletic body movements. Dexterity is small focused sensitive movements, mainly of the hands.

In the save versus a Fireball, Strength correlates with the athletic skills to jump out of its way or bracing against it.

Note how Dexterity functions in reallife.

If you look at the body of a reallife renowned archer, sharpshooter, videogame champion, typist, or quilt maker, their physical agility is average. They might be potbellied, in wheelchairs, or so on, and highly unlikely to be able to leap out of the way of a Fireball, or catch themselves from a fall off a balcony.

Oppositely, if you look at a reallife acrobat/gymnast, whether male or female, they are strong and buff. Always.

In reallife, Dexterity has nothing to with athletics.



In formative D&D 1e under Gygax, one of the things it was trying to quantify is the difference between fine motor skills (namely manual Dexterity) versus global physical body, kinesthetic, skills (namely Strength). A person can be extremely strong, but still bad at typing.

A person who swings a sword proficiently in combat requires extreme hand-eye motor skills, balance, positioning, reflex, and so on. But one only needs to make a single Strength check, because swordfighting is wider than a ‘fine’ motor skill, and Strength represents the totality of the physical coordination of the whole body.

The funny thing about giants is, if they are too big, then dealing with all of these puny little creatures does require ‘fine’ motor skills, like typing, and they might lack manual dexterity.

Strength is the go-to ability for anything relating to jumping, climbing, lifting ones own body weight, catching oneself while falling, pulling oneself out of a trap, jumping out of the way of a trap, and so on. Strength is the check that one makes for any kind of Athletics check. Athletes are necessarily strong. Use Strength for any kind of physical stunt.

It seems to me, jumping out of the way of a Fireball, is necessarily a Strength check, using the same kind of kinesthetic athletic skill that swordfighting does. A warrior is much more likely to avoid a Fireball than a typist is. A warrior is much more likely to avoid a Fireball than a lockpick is.

Being a worldclass sharpshooter with slow steady cautious aim, is of little help versus a Fireball explosion.

Use Strength for all Reflex checks that require athletic coordination.



In D&D 1e, the confusion seems to be because of balance. And this confusion snowballed across the editions. The problem is, tightrope walking. Walking across a rope was something that occasionally happened during an adventure, and the DMs had to adjudicated it. It was obvious that tightroping had little to do with physical weightlifting. A bodybuilder was not necessarily good at tightroping. A nonathlete might be good at it. So they gave it to (manual) Dexterity. Since then ‘Balance’ checks have been used for everything ‘acrobatic’, including ‘surfing’ a Fireball explosion. This misuse of Dexterity is an error.

Only a warrior/athlete would be able to theoretically ‘surf’ an explosion. Not a typist.

Moreover, tightrope walking really is a ‘fine’ motor skill, much more focused than a total body athletic check.

Dexterity is manual Dexterity only. It is the fine motion of ones hands and fingers, like knitting. Now, if someone wanted to type on a keyboard using toes instead of fingers, it would still be a Dexterity check because it is a fine motor skill, even tho it isnt strictly ‘manual’ because it uses feet. Similarly, if someone was playing a videogame using ones feet it would be a Dexterity check.

Walking across a rope resembles playing a videogame with ones feet. It is highly focused, and requires small, precise, sensitive motion. So, tightroping really is a Dexterity check, even tho one of the more unusual uses of ‘manual’ Dexterity.



In sum:

• Use Strength for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require the athletics of the entire body.
• Use Dexterity for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require small, sensitive movements.