D&D 5E Three Saves

[Yaarel]

Reflex (Strength-Dexterity)

Personally, I see the Paladin as a knight who is effective fighting a dragon. The Paladin should be good versus the Breath Weapon. But I dont see the Paladin with especially high Dexterity.

In this case, the Paladin is likely to have high Strength, and it is his or her athletic training that makes them effective versus the Breath Weapon. Strength contributes to the Reflex save of a Paladin.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

In sum:

• Use Strength for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require the athletics of the entire body.
• Use Dexterity for any kind of Reflex check that seems to require small, sensitive movements.

Wait. I thought your proposal was to combine the scores into saves additively or using the 4E "best-of" model or something like that. But this makes it sound like you're still using the different scores for different saves, 5E style. So what exactly are you changing, other than relabeling both "Strength saves" and "Dexterity saves" into "Reflex saves" for extra confusion?

 

[Yaarel]

Wait. I thought your proposal was to combine the scores into saves additively or using the 4E "best-of" model or something like that. But this makes it sound like you're still using the different scores for different saves, 5E style. So what exactly are you changing, other than relabeling both "Strength saves" and "Dexterity saves" into "Reflex saves" for extra confusion?

The ability ‘check’ refers to a proactive action. But both abilities together can contribute additively to reactive ‘save’.

So, for example, use Strength for a rough-and-tumble swordfighting stunt. But use Dexterity for the delicate precision of long-range archery or careful quite motions of Stealth.

Even so, use both Strength and Dexterity when saving versus a fall. Both athletic maneuvering and frozen balance can help.

It makes sense that a person who is both athletically strong and minutely dexterous can fall like a cat.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

So you're suggesting that Initiative and Armour Class adjustments should also be a function of Strength, not Dexterity?

 

[Yaarel]

So you're suggesting that Initiative and Armour Class adjustments should also be a function of Strength, not Dexterity?

Strength seems relevant to Armor Class. For example, blocking a sword attack with ones arm, is like a Strength check that requires bodily athletic coordination. To avoid a sword attack requires almost the exact same kind hand-eye reflexes as the Strength roll to aim a sword attack. To be honest, Dexterity seems less relevant since Armor Class relies less on careful minute motions. Even so, small effective movements do help.

Athletic warriors seem able to handle themselves well in combat, even without armor.



Initiative depends on how you understand it. Is it a reaction to a sudden unforeseen threat − in which case Reflex (Str-Dex) seems relevant.

Or, is Initiative the ability to anticipate what will happen and plan accordingly − in which case Will/Perception (Int-Wis) seems relevant.

 

[Jester David]

Reflex: Strength & Dexterity
• Strength (big athletic body movements)
• Dexterity (small sensitive movements)

I'll buy Strength in Reflex. It might work well in Fortitude as well though.

Fortitude: Constitution & Charisma
• Constitution (physical toughness, immune system, persevering against exhaustion)
• Charisma (luck, innate magic, fate - in D&D 1e Gygax defines these as nonphysical hp)

Referencing 1e and Gygax just seems to be a handwavy way of justifying Charisma here rather than Will (portraying Charisma as force of personality, sense of self, and confidence). It's a very odd fit. Since Cha isn't used for anything related to health (hit points, tests of endurance, etc) it seems a stretch.

Will: Intelligence & Wisdom
• Intelligence (knowledgeability, analytic search, reason)
• Wisdom (sensory perception, instinctive willpower)

Intelligence kinda fits...


The problem with this schema, like in 4e, was that you have two physical saves for three stats and one mental save for three stats. So there always needs to be a mental stat in a physical save. Which is awkward. And there's the effort for forced synergy to have each stat in one save, and each save have two possible ability scores. Which matches, but doesn't always make sense.
Symetry might not be the best way.

If sticking with the three, having Str or Con for Fortitude make sense; Str or Dex for Reflex is good; and just accept the unevenness and have Int, Wis, or Cha for Will. Maybe tack on a rider that the same stat cannot be used twice so you cannot have Str for both Fort and Ref. But this is complicated, as every time you tack on a rider like that you're adding a point of failure that someone might miss and make a broken character.

There's also no strong reason to have three saves beyond "that's how 3e/4e did it". You could have four with a floating option in each (again, risking errors), adding another mental save (Personality? Sense of self). Or you could just combine Reflex and Fortitude and have "Physical" and "Mental" Saves.

 

[Xeviat]

I'd use the 4E division, but have them be additive. Prof+Ability on attack adds up to reasonably close to Ability+Ability, but Ability+Ability+Prof could get out of hand.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

The problem with this, apart from unpicking 5e into an older iteration of some sort, is that logically Dex becomes irrelevant for everything other than manual tasks that require skilful fingers, which makes it somewhat useless unless you're a bard (for playing an instrument), a thief (for thiefy things), or possibly a wizard (for somatic components).

You'd need a whole new stat - Agility - to accurately respresent the difference between what the word dexterity actually means and what D&D use it for.

Which then becomes an issue of it not being D&D - SDCIWC (or for old timers like me, SIWDCCh) is THE format of stats that defines D&D. It hasn't changed (bar swapping the order round) since the start, or at least since Red Box Basic.

Yes its inelegant, as a pianist (high Dex) could quite easily also be a champion pie eater (low Dex).

Perhaps for feats of manual dexterity you could instead make these skills modified by your Int instead (playing music needs a certain amount of knowledge and memory; picking locks is a mental task too; and learning the right gestures to a spell is a memory trick, too). Or just only add Prof bonus and leave it at that, and rename Dex as Agility.

Doing this though is the start of a rewrite isn't it? I may be missing the point but why go to the trouble?

 

[Uchawi]

And the other side of the equation, regardless of what you choose as the saving throw system, is providing abilities for each class to use it. 5E already has a problem with the majority of classes being spell casters, and spells providing a wider range of diversity in regards to attacking AC or involving a saving throw.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

It all applies to PCs and monsters/npcs equally already so swapping it to give alternatives to saves also will be the same for both sides so...no functional change?