D&D 5E Three Saves

[Warmaster Horus]

Give an example, of nonmuscular agility.

Even agility in the sense of running fast, requires strong muscles.

A small child darting across narrow ledges and high beams to evade city watchmen below.

A crippled beggar running a 3-card monte game on a street corner.

A blindfolded halfling hurling throwing knives with uncanny accuracy.

 

[Yaarel]

A small child darting across narrow ledges and high beams to evade city watchmen below.

When you say ‘darting’, do you mean Run, or just normal Move speed with a precision check?



And. Small children are not yet developed neurologically, and tend to lack weightlifting strength and body coordination.

Additionally, small children are terrible at fine motor skills.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

When you say ‘darting’, do you mean Run, or just normal Move speed with a precision check?

Either. There's no strength component to running.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Yaarel]

In 3e, a person actually loses their Dexterity bonus while taking the Running action.

A crippled beggar running a 3-card monte game on a street corner.

A blindfolded halfling hurling throwing knives with uncanny accuracy.

Both the card trick and the knife throwing, are checks for precision involving manual dexterity, and fine motor skills.

I would describe neither as ‘agile’, because both the card player and the knife thrower are relatively immobile.

 

[Yaarel]

To adjudicate someone who is trying to outrun someone else of the same speed, in some kind of race or chase, I am likely to use a Strength check in most circumstances.

After a short sprint of, say, a hundred yards, I can start to think about Constitution, similar to lifting very heavy weights for several reps. It hasnt really come up, but maybe use the Constitution score to determine the number of rounds of something ‘exhausting’, and the Constitution bonus to determine the number of rounds for something ‘extreme’.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Your argument that Dex (manual dexterity) is vital for archery is flawed. Strength of arm is. Eyesight is. Nimble fingers? Nah.
Same for crossbow. Same for spears and javelins. Maybe a wee bit for slingshots. Under this line of thinking, Dex disappears as a significant stat, to be replaced with Str.

Sorry, I don't buy it. D&D is an imperfect system but if you want a lot more granularity, try Runequest instead.

 

[Yaarel]

Yeah, I don't even. Look, it's clear that you've fallen into the fallacy of correlation. Do you know something else? Athletes, who are often both strong and agile, are healthy too! Do why not just throw constitution into the mix?

If you want to get to a pre-determined conclusion, you will get there. If you want to say that gymnasts and athletes are often agile AND strong, no one will argue with you. But if you're seriously arguing that there aren't strong people that aren't that agile, or agile people that aren't that strong ... well, your reasoned argument falls in the face of reality.

Name one person who is highly mobile and yet nonmuscular? One example would give a clearer sense of what you mean.



In reallife, *every* athlete that is mobilely agile is noticeably strong. Look at female gymnasts. Theyre built. Swimmers. Built.

The ‘athletes’ who specifically have high Dexterity, are rifle shooters, discus throwers, ping pong players, tobogganists, and so on. I could see the ping pong player dodging an explosion, as long as it wasnt much larger than a ping pong table. This is an example of why Dexterity can arguably add to a Reflex save, in the sense of small effective movements.

Maybe a tennis player? I know one competitive tennis player in reallife, but he trains for upperbody Strength as well as leg Strength.

Even so, in D&D, a tennis racket and tennis ball might be in the same category as a sling, being a ranged military weapon (requiring lots of training) and benefiting mainly from Dexterity?

 

[Yaarel]

Your argument that Dex (manual dexterity) is vital for archery is flawed. Strength of arm is. Eyesight is. Nimble fingers?

For archery, Dexterity is the ability check for precision because of small, focused, shifts of angles, while aiming. Archers are the opposite of ‘agile’, and seem like they are standing motionless until releasing the string.

Strength helps for distance (and damage). In D&D tradition there exists a special ‘Strength’ bow, that can translate the pull into an impact with higher damage.

One needs to see what one is aiming at, but that is true for swordfighting too.

 

[lowkey13]

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