D&D 5E Three Saves

[Mark CMG]

Here is a way to arrange the six abilities into three saves that works well.

The benefit of this arrangement is, the descriptions cohere with early D&D traditions.



Reflex: Strength & Dexterity
• Strength (big athletic body movements)
• Dexterity (small sensitive movements)

Fortitude: Constitution & Charisma
• Constitution (physical toughness, immune system, persevering against exhaustion)
• Charisma (luck, innate magic, fate - in D&D 1e Gygax defines these as nonphysical hp)

Will: Intelligence & Wisdom
• Intelligence (knowledgeability, analytic search, reason)
• Wisdom (sensory perception, instinctive willpower)

Yup. Been doing that for 12 years with my G&G playtest but I pair Str and Con, Dex and Int, Wis and Chr. I think it works great.

 

[Yaarel]

In D&D 5e, the javelin is a thrown weapon, whose accuracy depends on Strength.

 

[Yaarel]

The Olympic discus thrower is arguably in the same category as the javelin, and requires a thrown Strength check for accuracy.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Beyond your arguments re: STR being both the statto de tutti statti and impossible to separate from agility (which is plainly false, Google Brian Shaw and tell me his strength lends itself to feats of gymnastics), the original point of your post was all about adding extra mods to saves, due to the interconnectivity of all stats; but as I said before, it cuts both ways for PCs and antagonists, so all that results is an escalation of the arms race such that it becomes less likely universally for any creature to fail any given save, resulting in a very boring game:
Prang (wizard): I cast Fireball!
DM: The arch-necromancer makes his save. He pulls on a lever which opens a pit trap beneath you.
Prang: I make my save. I cast Charm Person!
DM: He makes his save. He casts Fireball too!
Prang: I make my save. I cast magic missile. Save v that!
DM: He casts magic missile.
Prang: I cast magic missile.
DM: He casts Sleep.
Prang: I make my save. I cast Magic Missile.
DM: He casts magic missile.
Foo (fighter): Oh sod this. I hit Prang and surrender to the bad guy. Risk, anyone?

Sorry, thee and me are never the twain on this one. All the best, though.

 

[Yaarel]

@The Grassy Gnoll,

Sincerely, all the best.

Discussing the abilities to arrive at clearer, more balanced, more lifelike, and more useful definitions, helps the game as a whole.

The issues are complex, and it is ok, to view them from different points of view.

 

[seebs]

Look at really high-end competitive video gaming, and you'll see a lot of people who are insanely agile but not very strong.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Look at really high-end competitive video gaming, and you'll see a lot of people who are insanely agile but not very strong.

Which could just as easily be the problem of "stats conglomerate together unrelated things" in addition to the already-known problem of separating related things. "Agility"/"Dexterity" combines speed, coordination, accuracy, fine-detail movement, reflexes...and many of them can be improved without any meaningful effect on the others. (Accuracy probably can't be completely forked out of coordination and fine-detail movement, but you can easily be an incredibly talented woodcarver or dancer (or both!) without knowing a thing about archery and without any ability to sprint.

Like just about every numerical summary of a character, we accept that these things are highly abstracted. HP, AC, etc. are all going to be compromises between simplicity and accuracy. There might be better points of compromise--I've put more than a little thought into it myself--but the inertia of the familiar is a powerful force to try to overcome. 13th Age's use of Physical Defense (PD) as the middle of your three physical scores (Str, Con, Dex) and Mental Defense (MD) as the middle of your three mental scores (Int, Wis, Cha) may be a superior solution--it discourages hyperfocus/rewards spread out stats, while collapsing the "physical things" into a single category to mirror the single mental category (Will).