Throwing Initiative

[the Jester]

When I was running 3e, I ran surprise and initiative by the book.

However, I certainly had times when only one character (pc or npc) was surprised, and there were ambushes where there was an 'ambush round' followed by Spot or Listen checks to avoid another round of surprise, and sometimes those checks failed.

 

[Water Bob]

Surprise EXISTS when one side is unaware of the other, but it says nowhere that BECOMING aware of an opponent forces the immediate commencement of combat.

Combat starts when someone actually initiates an attack.

Pg. 23, 3.5 DMG: If both sides are aware at the same time and can interact, both should roll initiative and resolve actions normally.

Then, there is an example on the same page that says: A party of adventurers comes along a dungeon corridor and hears the laughter of orcs beyond the door ahead. Meanwhile, the orc lookout sees the adventurers through a peephole in the door and warns his comrades. The door is closed, so no direct interaction is possible yet. And the example ends with description of the actions being taken on both sides of the door with the DM taking note of the combat rounds as they pass.



This is exactly what I was hoping I have been wrong about. Clearly, initiative takes place at awareness and when somebody initiates an attack.

If I were GMing this scenario, I don't think I would go into combat rounds until at least the door was opened--and I'd probably wait for the commencement of an attack. I don't think it efficient or fun to play through combat rounds in that example, keeping track of the rounds as they pass.

In other words, I'd probably play it the way you say, but the book says what it says.

 

[irdeggman]

Check out the Rules Compendium pg 70 under Initiative (too long to totally quote).

But....

"At the start of a battle, if both sides are aware at the same time and can interact, each combatant. . . ."

The DMG section also talks about combat actions should normally ony be done during combat but that sometimes they are done outside of combat and then goes on to explain how to best handle it (a sugestion but not a "rule"). It then explains the example as something best handled via initiative order type of system.

Note that the examples are for special circumstances and not for all circumstances.

Surprise only applies to combat circumstances. The entire section in the DMG is under the "Combat" section.

The same in the PHB when it talks about surprise rounds.

 

[Li Shenron]

I believe those DMG rules were mostly intended for dungeon encounters.

Either way, I tend to vary my decisions rather than strictly stick to the RAW.

For instance, I normally still run one surprise round even if both sides are aware, typically because I think that exactly because both are aware then I like lessening the importance of the first round (a surprise round is partial actions only so it's less valuable than a full round).

OTOH, there have even been occasions when I granted a full round rather than a normal surprise round, when the ambushed side was unaware and significantly unprepared.

 

[Water Bob]

I'm all about changing the rules to fit playstyle, but I first believe that one should completely understand RAW before any rules are changed.

It's difficult to completely understand RAW. I've been playing this campaign for over a year now. I've had plenty of time to read through the rule books (and I have, some sections several times). But, reading and playing using the rules are sometimes two different things. I try not to change a rule until I've played with it once in a game.

We don't play often. It was five months between last Sunday's session and the session before that last September. (We try to play more often than that! It's just how it worked out.) So, we've had a handful of game sessions--probably less than 10. And, the first five sessions were were all about roleplaying.

My quest is to understand 3.5 RAW before I go changing things to suit taste.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I'm all about changing the rules to fit playstyle, but I first believe that one should completely understand RAW before any rules are changed.

Exactly. The rules have to be understood in context.

For example, the initiative rules are set forth in the PHB under Chapter 8: Combat. That's the first clue that they are intended to be used in combat situations, not just any time two "sides" become aware of each other's presence.

Then there's the first sentence of step two in "How Combat Works" (PHB, page 133): "The DM determines which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle."

Basically, everything irdeggman has said is correct.

Under the Combat Actions Outside Combat section, there is even an example of using the combat round to adjucate a non-combat circumstance.

(1) Yes, there are exceptions to the general rules. That's why we have DMs, because D&D isn't Chess or Monopoly; there will be times where DMs have to exercise some judgment, and that's why it's important for them to really understand the rules in context.

(2) Even the example presented in the DMG is a combat situation; it just happens to be between two people who don't actually want to kill each other. The lesson to be learned, however, is that you use initiative when the order of resolution of actions is important: can Lidda pull the lever before Mialee can stop her? If Lidda wants to do one thing and Mialee wants to do another, and it makes no difference which action the DM resolves first, there's no need to use initiative and combat rounds. But if it does matter, it makes sense to use combat rounds even if there's no actual "combat" occurring.

 

[Water Bob]

[MENTION=40109]Vegepygmy[/MENTION]

Then the example I cited from the DMG where initiatiave is thrown when the orc sees the party through the door.

Combat didn't ensue in that example for a few rounds--and it could have been several rounds, depending on the players' actions.

Yet, initiative was thrown at awarness, just like the DMG says.

Explain that.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

The DMG p.22: "An encounter can begin in one of three situations: [awareness situations follow].". It says "can" not "must". Nothing compels you to start combat when awareness occurs, it just states that's how encounters begin. But yes, even that overstates the case. Encounters begin when the dm wants them to. The DMG is rather assuming here that "encounter"="combat" and that just AIN'T always the case.

Encounters can be traps, puzzles, conversations with NPC's, etc. none of which require awareness of an "opponent" much less an initiative roll. On the other hand, I've called for initiative rolls and round by round movement on occasion just to regulate what happens to who, where and when, even though there was nothing to fight.

 

[Water Bob]

Encounters begin when the dm wants them to.

Justs as the DM can change any rule he wants. But, we're talking about RAW.

The DMG is rather assuming here that "encounter"="combat" and that just AIN'T always the case.

Sure. But the examples in the DMG show the going into tactical combat on awarness, not necessarily combat.

The example with the Orc sentry and the door separating the party from them is telltale. I think most GMs would go into combat rounds once the door is opened and not fumble around in six second turns.

 

[Vegepygmy]

@Vegepygmy

Then the example I cited from the DMG where initiatiave is thrown when the orc sees the party through the door.

Uh...what?

Example (Both Aware but Cannot Interact Immediately): A party of adventurers comes along a dungeon corridor and hears the laughter of orcs beyond the door ahead. Meanwhile, the orc lookout sees the adventurers through a peephole in the door and warns his comrades. The door is closed, so no direct interaction is possible yet. Jozan casts bless. Lidda drinks a potion. Tordek and Mialee move up to the door. At the same time, the orcs move into position, and one uses a ring of invisibility to hide. The DM records the passage of 1 round. The adventurers arrange themselves around the door and make a quick plan. The orcs turn over tables and nock arrows in their shortbows. The DM tracks another round. The fighter opens the door, and the DM calls for an initiative check from all. The third round begins, this time with the order of actions being important (and dictated by the initiative check results).

That example? The one where initiative isn't thrown until 2 rounds after the orc sees the party through the door? And where the DMG explicitly states what I explained previously: that you use initiative when the order of actions becomes important (and not until then)?

Combat didn't ensue in that example for a few rounds--and it could have been several rounds, depending on the players' actions.

Yet, initiative was thrown at awarness, just like the DMG says.

Except no, it wasn't.

Explain that.

Done. Any questions?