Throwing Initiative

[Water Bob]

The 3.5 DMG instructs that initiative is thrown when awareness happens--when one side detects the other. Suprise may play a part depending on who is aware of who. If both sides become aware of each other, then we skip Surprise and go straight to rolling initiative.

How many of you play this way?

I can think of a lot of example where the game is better served by holding the initiative throw and continue playing the game in a free-form manner after both sides are aware of each other.

How do you Third Edition Veterans play it?

 

[kitcik]

If someone intends a hostile action and the other side is in any way suspicious / alert, we throw init.

In our game, it is possible, although very unlikely, to surprise someone after they are aware of you. So maybe you're having a conversation with your trusted and loyal contact when he suddenly punches you in the face.

 

[Is_907]

When I'm DMing, I hold off on actually tracking initiative until it's really necessary to know exact order of actions.

Assuming no surprise, though, I usually go straight to tracking init.

If one side, for any reason, definitely gets to act first, I often just say "What do you all do?" and resolve their actions in a more free form fashion then start tracking on the first round where both sides get to act.


I use this sort of method for ANY game that tracks initiative, not just 3e / PF.

 

[Spatula]

The groups I've been in have played it by the RAW. But then, the (different) groups that I was in pre-3e played the same way (roll initiative at the start of combat, or maybe after the surprise round is over).

 

[Water Bob]

In our game, it is possible, although very unlikely, to surprise someone after they are aware of you. So maybe you're having a conversation with your trusted and loyal contact when he suddenly punches you in the face.

There's a Conan RPG rule, from a supplemental book (not in the Core Rulebook) that allows Surprise-like actions (what you describe) without breaking the 3.5E rule that Surprise can only take place when the surprised character is unaware of his attacker.

I'm forgetting the name of the rule, right now. I'd have to look it up.

When I'm DMing, I hold off on actually tracking initiative until it's really necessary to know exact order of actions.

I think I'm going to start doing this. Rolling for initiative as soon as two parties are aware of each other seems nonsensical at times. If both sides are ready to fight, it's not a problem. But, if other ambitions are to be played, it seems too early to roll and put the game into slow tactical combat rounds.

Even if it's a clear enemy, sometimes not going straight into combat leads to more enjoyable game play.

For example:

GM: Your torch flares as you walk down the narrow, cob webbed stone cut corridor. The blackness ahead of you opens into a dark room. As you enter, you see the reflection of eyes some 30 feet away--it looks like cat's eyes do when you shine a light on them at night.

There's a pair of them, and they both seem to be looking straight at you.

A step closer, you're fully into the room. Your torch lights the place, and you can see that there are two green skinned goblins looking at you. They're not saying anything, and you don't see a drawn weapon, though they hold shields--and you can see each has his weapon hand concealed behind their shields. Each does has a shortsword, in its shagreen sheath, hanging at their small hips.



RAW 3.5 is pretty clear about starting the combat encounter at the awareness point. And, as I said above, this is fine if the goblins would act as expected and simply attack the PCs. But, for the situation I describe above, it sure would not play well in combat rounds. The goblins would most likely get a surprise standard action (which the GM would chose not to use given their demeanor), and initiative would be thrown just before the PC entered the room when he saw the cat's eyes.

The groups I've been in have played it by the RAW. But then, the (different) groups that I was in pre-3e played the same way (roll initiative at the start of combat, or maybe after the surprise round is over).

Yeah, I think in my 3.5E based game, I'm going to start ignorning RAW and just rolling initiative when combat is about to ensue--not on awareness.

In the example above, I'd keep playing the scenario in the free-form method until either the goblin or the PC started to make an overt action. If either the PC or the goblins attack, I'll have initiative thrown. But, the above could easily go into a role playing encounter, and it's not necessary or desireable to play out that type of encounter in combat rounds.*







*The Flat-footed rule makes a lot more sense if initiative is rolled by RAW at awareness. The rule becomes less-logical in a situation like the above. Let's say the PC closes to the goblin's threat range, and what the goblins had concealed behind their shields were daggers dipped in venom. As soon as the PCs approach, both goblins explode into action by stabbing at him with their daggers.

Playing it free-form up until that point, I'd say something like:

You: What are the goblins doing there?

GM: They're just standing there. Not moving. Eerily still, just looking at you.

You: Hmm. Strange. OK, I'm not going to draw my sword, but I'll keep the torch raised high. I'll approach the goblins with my sword hand open, palm towards them.

GM: You approach, and both of the burst into action. They have daggers concealed behind their shields. There's a high pitched goblin war cray, and both swing at you. Roll initiative. Looks like both won. You go last. That means they've caught you flat-footed.





Does that scenario seem like the PC should be flat-footed? By RAW, he certainly is because his initiative count hasn't come up yet.

Caught without his sword in his hand, definitely. But, caught with a sluggish, lowered defense as he approaches two goblins in this situation doesn't seem to be realistic or logical at all.

I can see the PC being flat-footed had initiative been thrown at awarness, as RAW indicates, back when the PC first saw the cat's eyes.

This is one of those things that falls under the Rule of Unintended Consequences. You change one thing about RAW (rolling initiative on attack rather than awareness), and it effects something that you don't think of at first, creating other problems.

 

[irdeggman]

We play per DMG rules.

But note that the initiative rules apply to "combat" not to actions outside of combat.

Until 1 side makes an intent to be hostile then no combat exists.

If the group that is "aware" of the other group decides to take no offensive actions (by their declarations) then no initiative is necessary since it is not a "combat situation".

D&D (3.x and earlier) rounds are designed around combat and not around non-combat type actions. Sort of why they call it a combat round.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

For example, if, within a tavern, both parties are in a non-threatening conversation, and then one throws a sucker punch, that's a surprise round standard action.

Both parties were aware of each other, but one party was not aware that combat would be coming.

 

[kitcik]

For example, if, within a tavern, both parties are in a non-threatening conversation, and then one throws a sucker punch, that's a surprise round standard action.

Both parties were aware of each other, but one party was not aware that combat would be coming.

That's how we play it. Unless the punchee had said something like "I'm keeping my eyes open for trouble." In that case, I would roll init when the puncher made his fist. Maybe the punchee was so ready, he could beat the puncher to the punch, so to speak.

 

[Water Bob]

We play per DMG rules.

But note that the initiative rules apply to "combat" not to actions outside of combat.

Until 1 side makes an intent to be hostile then no combat exists.

If the group that is "aware" of the other group decides to take no offensive actions (by their declarations) then no initiative is necessary since it is not a "combat situation".

D&D (3.x and earlier) rounds are designed around combat and not around non-combat type actions. Sort of why they call it a combat round.

That's definitely an interpretation of the rules (and I can see how you got there), but it's an incorrect interpretation based on RAW.

Read page 22 of the 3.5 DMG (where it is called an "encounter" and not necessarily a "combat encounter"). It's specific there that initiative is thrown at awarness, not combat intent.

If you read that section throughly, you'll see that it keeps referring to awarness of the other party--not necessarily combat attacks. Under Both Sides Aware At the Same Time, it is even suggested that, if combat cannot ensue but both parties are aware of each other, that the GM continue to play out actions in combat rounds though no combat is taking place--the GM counting the rounds before actual combat happens.

Under the Combat Actions Outside Combat section, there is even an example of using the combat round to adjucate a non-combat circumstance.




If I'm wrong about this, I'd like someone to correct me by citing the book. I want to be wrong about this, but that's what I'm reading.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Surprise EXISTS when one side is unaware of the other, but it says nowhere that BECOMING aware of an opponent forces the immediate commencement of combat. Combat starts when someone actually initiates an attack. If you fail to do that while your opponent is still unaware of your presence that's your own fault but requires no special treatment in the rules.