TPK - Therapy session.

[Ragmon]

Hey guys.

This will be a...Me writing down the situation, cause I can't really talk about this with anyone beyond my D&D group, maybe my brother, but that is my brother...

It won't be long I promise.

So, we are a group of 3, ECL 5:
- Cleric 5 (war & strength) - Half-orc - CN
- Favored Soul 4 (worshiping an LG god) - Aasimar - CG
- Ranger 4 (Humans for favored Enemy) - Halfling + Half-Minotaur - CN

Quest summary:
Magic winter, find the source, castle of ice a week from the nearest town. (simple)

What happened: Walk walk walk, kill some ice skeletons, killed the a wizards familiar maphit, got to the castle, used the sewer pipe to enter.
Now inside we found we killed an Ogre Cook, and found a room where 2 people were talking. So we "sneak" closer, they hear us, we get a face full of 11d6 worth of cold damage, or more.
We were fully buffed and ready to go. So we went.

In the room, 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 fighter, 2 ice constructs.

Wizard gets gets attacked by a giant wasp, then as a contingency spell he dimension doors, or something like that.
The FS runs in critically hitting the fighter for 35+ dmg, the ranger attacked some one with a make shift javelin, he had axes (but what ever).
We started getting suspicious when the enemy cleric (woman in a dress) didn't get hit with a 22 attack. Well that and that the fighter attacked 3 times as a full-round action and dealt 14 dmg with a long sword when he rolled a 2.

All of us got 3 shot by the fighter in 3 rounds, every attack hit, even against 26 AC.

We dealt some damage here and there but nothing note-worthy.

After this we packed up silently, with only a "this is bull" and "good bye and see ya", no words nothing and allowed the DM to show us to the door.

What I take away from this is we got TPK-ed by level 11+ characters at ECL 5. With the DM stating that we were only here to spy or something... check the group setup, we were running around in medium armor. We were Chaotic, with an average group INT of 8 (cleric 6, Ranger 8, FS 10).

Ah, that feels good to tell some one.

I feel like that a warning would have been nice, that is my own personal opinion on the situation.

Thank you for listening.
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Edited after getting to page 6

I would like to add this to this post.

There is no right or wrong in the main post, there is a situation a story as it were, and I just so happened to add my personal opinion at the end. I did not ask for help on solving this situation, I did not ask for any opinion, I just wanted share my experience with like-minded individuals.
The interesting part is not the main post, but how everyone reacted, trying to solve a none existent problem, trying to help when it was not asked for.
And what I realize as I write these lines is how helpful people on ENworld try to be, want to be and it is remarkable how ready they are to help out anyone who posts here.

 

[Warbringer]

First, I said well done for staying in character definitely the expected result for a bunch of average intelligence characters that solve problems with their fists.

The DM should have expected this; made it crystal clear (telling you, pointing out heavy/medium armor probably not a great idea); had you tackle one of these 11 level guys on their own so you could have had an "oh sh&t" moment)

Talk to the DM and see if he's open to the TPK meaning captured.

Good luck

 

[Alzrius]

I've seen situations like this before, and it's usually a product of wildly different expectations.

Your GM was probably thinking something along the lines of "okay, not every enemy in the game world is a balanced match for the PCs. That's reasonable, so I'll drop a hint or two early on that they're outnumbered and outgunned, and if it starts to go south, well...bad Intelligence scores don't mean suicidal." That was probably expected to form the basis for a longer campaign where you know who your enemies are.

Meanwhile, it sounds like your group wasn't expecting to face any encounters that would be beyond what they could handle, to the point of staying in the fight even when the first hit you took was wildly stronger than what you guys could bring to bear in response.

To reiterate some terms that are popular here, you guys were expecting combat as sports, whereas your GM was expecting combat as war.

 

[Ragmon]

I've seen situations like this before, and it's usually a product of wildly different expectations.

Your GM was probably thinking something along the lines of "okay, not every enemy in the game world is a balanced match for the PCs. That's reasonable, so I'll drop a hint or two early on that they're outnumbered and outgunned, and if it starts to go south, well...bad Intelligence scores don't mean suicidal." That was probably expected to form the basis for a longer campaign where you know who your enemies are.

Meanwhile, it sounds like your group wasn't expecting to face any encounters that would be beyond what they could handle, to the point of staying in the fight even when the first hit you took was wildly stronger than what you guys could bring to bear in response.

To reiterate some terms that are popular here, you guys were expecting combat as sports, whereas your GM was expecting combat as war.

Yea I think the DM wanted us to check on the enemy, then try to gather an army, and wage war, that is my assumption.
Yea we were no expecting 6 levels higher enemies, but we were prepared for a big fight, we were buffed to the brim. Ranger had 3 buffs, Cleric had 5, FS 6+.
I forgot to add to the main post that the this DM always gave us fair fights, at least near our level, so it was a surprise to us to be attacked 3 times by the fighter. The 11d6+ frost-ball wasent that big of a surprise, since we suspected a high level wizard.

 

[Alzrius]

I forgot to add to the main post that the this DM always gave us fair fights, at least near our level, so it was a surprise to us to be attacked 3 times by the fighter. The 11d6+ frost-ball wasent that big of a surprise, since we suspected a high level wizard.

I confess myself a little confused by these last two sentences.

If your GM usually always gave you level-appropriate encounters, then this definitely puts more of the blame on him (at the very least, for not communicating his intentions better)...but if that's the case, why were you expecting a high-level spellcaster?

 

[Ragmon]

I confess myself a little confused by these last two sentences.

If your GM usually always gave you level-appropriate encounters, then this definitely puts more of the blame on him (at the very least, for not communicating his intentions better)...but if that's the case, why were you expecting a high-level spellcaster?

Yea I'm confused by it too.

We expected a high level caster because:
We killed a Mephit leading Ice Skeleton groups, killing everything in sight. When we killed it the DM rolled for the fort save vs not losing as much XP. That and it was an "unusually cold winter" that and we encountered a ghost that mentioned the familiar and his master. Our assumptions were correct, with the high level wizard. But there was probably a deeper plot.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yea I'm confused by it too.

We expected a high level caster because:
We killed a Mephit leading Ice Skeleton groups, killing everything in sight. When we killed it the DM rolled for the fort save vs not losing as much XP. That and it was an "unusually cold winter" that and we encountered a ghost that mentioned the familiar and his master. Our assumptions were correct, with the high level wizard. But there was probably a deeper plot.

Sounds like you guys had the early warning signs of a very dangerous/lethal encounter and walked right into it. How is the DM at fault here?

 

[Ragmon]

Sounds like you guys had the early warning signs of a very dangerous/lethal encounter and walked right into it. How is the DM at fault here?

No-one is at fault. It was the DM's choice, we did not argue...I called BS tho.

For example, no DM will throw a level 7 group of enemies at a 1st level party, just because the DM had sudden change of DM-ing style.

Its like playing The Elder Scroll (choose a number) where the enemies scale with you, then switching to an MMO where you wonder into a high level area and a bee one shots you cause your level 1 and the bee is level 45.

 

[Oryan77]

All of us got 3 shot by the fighter in 3 rounds, every attack hit, even against 26 AC.

but its BS to throw much higher enemies at the group without warning.

This sounds just like something one of my players would be saying in the same situation. My response is (and what I would say to him) is, "Wasn't round 1 warning enough?"

I've heard players say that the DM should have given fair warning about the power level of an NPC, but isn't that a lot harder to get across to players than it sounds? I guarantee I could describe an NPC in the most magnificent armor ever, I could roleplay the most confident personality ever, and yadda yadda, yadda, and all my players are going to think is, "I bet we can sell that armor for a lot of money once we loot him." Or, "This guy is so cocky, I can't wait to blast him."

Shouldn't the simple fact that he so easily beat on you guys in round 1 be a sure sign that maybe he is one of those, "I'm not meant to fight this guy" encounters? Even if this is not realized by round 1, shouldn't round 2 be warning enough? Certainly by round 3, some begging, pleading, or retreating would be the logical course of action? Surely the DM wouldn't go for the TPK at this point if you surrender or retreat (if you can get away). My experience as player & DM has been that the guys that stay and fight, end up fighting to their death. The guys that surrender or escape, avoid a TPK and live.

Am I the only player that will retreat or surrender these days in order to stay alive?

 

[Ragmon]

This sounds just like something one of my players would be saying in the same situation. My response is (and what I would say to him) is, "Wasn't round 1 warning enough?"

I've heard players say that the DM should have given fair warning about the power level of an NPC, but isn't that a lot harder to get across to players than it sounds? I guarantee I could describe an NPC in the most magnificent armor ever, I could roleplay the most confident personality ever, and yadda yadda, yadda, and all my players are going to think is, "I bet we can sell that armor for a lot of money once we loot him." Or, "This guy is so cocky, I can't wait to blast him."

Shouldn't the simple fact that he so easily beat on you guys in round 1 be a sure sign that maybe he is one of those, "I'm not meant to fight this guy" encounters? Even if this is not realized by round 1, shouldn't round 2 be warning enough? Certainly by round 3, some begging, pleading, or retreating would be the logical course of action? Surely the DM wouldn't go for the TPK at this point if you surrender or retreat (if you can get away). My experience as player & DM has been that the guys that stay and fight, end up fighting to their death. The guys that surrender or escape, avoid a TPK and live.

Am I the only player that will retreat or surrender these days in order to stay alive?

A warning is consistent DM-ing.

That and it was one of those situations where we got the drop on the enemy, even tho they noticed us.
Buffed up and ready to go, we were assuming a high level wizard, hence no retreating on the 11d6+ warning shot, and a Large Wasp has a nice grapple check to take em out of the fight fast.

Round 1
- us getting damaged.
- summoning the wasp and grappling the wizard, wizard activating Dimension Door are a ready action or a contingency spell.
- FS running in and criting the fighter for 35+ dmg.
- Ranger drank 2 potions.
- Fighter full-attacks the FS, FS dies.
*Yea its a fair warning, we were doing alright until the fighter attacked 3 freakin' times, probably power attacking and still hitting the 26 AC of the FS*

Round 2
- Ranger attacks the fighter with a makeshift javelin, misses.
- Cleric casts prayer.
- Wasp attacks the woman, missing with a 22, even tho she is in a dress, that is fine.
- The woman casts Unholy Blight.
- Fighter full-attacks the ranger, ranger dies.
*See the pattern? *

Round 3
- Cleric attacks the fighter, some damage is dealt.
- Fighter full-attacks the cleric, cleric dies.
*The fighter never missed an attack, even tho we were all AC 23+, and that he dealt d8+12 on each hit.*

So, was round 1 not a warning enough? No, there was only death.

PS: Even still, using a group of enemies that are minimum of 6 levels higher then the PC group? Let me know if as a DM you ever did that.