Turning Undead --- Different Takes?

Aus_Snow

First Post
OK, I have a feeling that my question shouldn't be "has anyone done this before?", but rather "how many people have done this already, and in what ways?"

Turning / Destroying / Rebuking / Commanding Undead (or other things, as the case may be) :

How about giving each undead (that can potentially be affected) a Save - I'm thinking Will - after the cleric makes their divine power / spiritual offense roll kind of thing? Then Turning Resistance could of ocurse be translated to bonuses to Will Saves vs. turning/rebuking etc.

Does that make any sense to anyone? As I started out saying, I've no doubt it does to soem DMs out there. If so - or if you've got another system for resolving undead turning -please let me know.
 

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TURN/REBUKE UNDEAD
Turn and rebuke undead abilities work differently than described in the core rulebooks. Changes to the abilities are summarized below:

Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and is considered an attack. To turn, a cleric presents his holy symbol and creates a 60 ft. cone of positive energy that affects only creatures of the undead type. All undead within the cone must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 cleric’s level + cleric’s Charisma modifier) or be turned. Turned undead flee or cower (which grants a +2 bonus on attack rolls against them) for 10 rounds. Undead that have half as many hit dice as the cleric has levels are destroyed instead. An undead creature adds its Charisma bonus (if any) to the saving throw.

A single turning attempt cannot affect more than twice the cleric’s level HD worth of undead creatures, to a minimum of one undead creature (regardless of its HD). If multiple undead creatures are present within the affected area, weaker undead creatures are always turned first.

If an undead creature has turning resistance, it applies the bonus to its Fortitude save and counts as if it had more hit dice for the purpose of determining whether it is turned or destroyed.

Rebuking undead is similar to turning, but the creatures always cower instead of fleeing, and those that have half as many hit dice as the cleric has levels are commanded instead.
An evil cleric can dispel a good cleric’s turning attempt by winning an opposed check (1d20 + cleric’s level + cleric’s Cha modifier), and vice versa.

TURNING OTHER CREATURES
Some domains allow the cleric to make turning attempts that affect other types of creatures (such as lycanthropes, reptiles, or elemental subtype creatures). Those attempts always count against the cleric’s available number of turn undead attempts per day, and have the same DC as turn undead.

For example, a cleric of Selûne with access to the Moon domain may turn evil lycanthropes in addition to being able to turn undead. If that cleric has an average Charisma score (10-11), he may use his turning ability three times per day, divided between turning undead and turning evil lycanthropes as desired.

Glory Domain
Granted Power: You gain Ability Focus (turn undead) as a bonus feat.
Source: Complete Divine

Sun Domain
Granted Power: You can make a greater turning attempt once per day. Any affected undead creatures are destroyed if their hit die total is lower than your cleric level.

IMPROVED TURNING
This feat is no longer available. Take Ability Focus (turn undead) instead.

Skill Synergy:
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), your DC on turn/rebuke undead checks increases by 1.
 

Aus_Snow said:
How about giving each undead (that can potentially be affected) a Save - I'm thinking Will - after the cleric makes their divine power / spiritual offense roll kind of thing? Then Turning Resistance could of ocurse be translated to bonuses to Will Saves vs. turning/rebuking etc.

Will is a strong save for Undead-- this would seriously limit the usefulness of the ability. How about Fortitude?
 

Korimyr the Rat said:
Will is a strong save for Undead-- this would seriously limit the usefulness of the ability. How about Fortitude?

I see what you mean, but I just thought Will Saves would be more suited to the concept. I mean, the whole disruption thing for example, that's Will Saves. Command Undead, Will too. There are exceptions, but I think the majority are Will.

Any thoughts on how to keep it roughly level (using Will saves) wiht the PHB version, in terms of power and reliablity?

Sammael: I quite like the look of the rules that you posted. Have you used them? Do they work well? And what are your thoughts on making it a Will rather than Fort Save?
 


Adding the entire effective cleric level to the DC and then using a Will save is approximately the same as adding 1/2 cleric level and using a Fortitude save. However, most other abilities use the [d20 + 1/2 level (or HD) + appropriate ability modifier] formula, which is why I used it as well. To compensate for the lack of Con a bit, I gave undead their Cha bonus (if any) as a modifier to the save.

Arguments can be made, flavor-wise, for both Fort and Will saves. There are also issues with templated undead. Using Fort, a lich is much more likely to be turned by using Will. However, using Will, a vampire fighter suddenly becomes very vulnerable to turning. Balancing this ability is quite delicate. I've found that it works in my game so far, but, then again, it is not very undead-heavy.
 

I really like the alternative to turning undead in Complete Divine.

Really puts the "fear of God" into those undead critters. Been using it ever since.
 

I built off of the variant suggested in Complete Divine, and have it on my site

I think some of the options I've built into the system are kinda fun.

There is a tweaked version which I haven't uploaded yet, which handles Commanding a little better.
 

Ironically, I was working on my Rule 0 document when I saw this. So here's what I do:

“Turn Undead” does Positive Energy damage or Negative Energy healing to Undead, instead of turning or rebuking them. Clerics and Paladins can affect all Undead in a 30' radius, and may attempt to Harm/Heal Undead a number of times a day equal to (3 + Charisma Modifier).

A character rolls 1d6 for every level of Cleric, or every two levels of Paladin, adding his Charisma bonus to the roll to determine how much Positive Energy damage is inflicted on the Undead. The Undead can make a Will Save for half damage. The save DC is 10 + Cleric's Level (or half Paladin Level) + Cleric's Charisma Modifier. The Undead apply their Turn Resistance to their saving throw, and subtract it from the total damage inflicted.

Undead failing their saving throw are considered to be Frightened, and will flee the Cleric, taking a –2 morale penalty to all their attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws. Undead making their saving throw are not otherwise affected.

Evil Clerics heal the undead within their area of effect. No save is necessary to heal undead. A Neutral character Damages or Heals Undead based on their ability to cast Cure or Inflict spells.

An evil cleric can “ready an action” to Heal Undead when a good cleric makes a Turn attempt, just as a spellcaster can when casting a counter-spell. In the event of this happening, both attempts are handled simultaneously. The damage is calculated, the saving throws made, and then the healing is subtracted from the damage before it is applied to the Undead.

Telas
 

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