D&D 5E Want a better Rogue? Build a Wizard. Or why play a Rogue?

A 9th level assassin can easily one shot a 9th level enemy wizard or sorcerer in the first round of combat and make the DM cry. I'm not sure anyone else can do that.
I'm puzzled by this statement.

A player has never "made me cry" by killing my opponents on the battlefield (that's kind of what they're there for.) If I need to challenge an assassin, I wouldn't use a 9th level spellcaster either. ;-)
 

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"if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered. "

Seems to me that wording indicates you and the object would have to be inside the bag of holding when you cast it to use it this way. If you cast the spell at location A, put it in the bag of holding, then pull it out at location B (more than 10 feet away), the spell would fizzle at soon as hits "normal space" again (possibly when you close the bag). Because the object would have moved (and be moving) more than 10' from "where you cast the spell", even if it did so through the interdimensional space for a total movement distance of less than 10 feet (from the object's point of view). Note that the wording doesn't say "moves more than a total of 10 feet", and the bag of holding opening isn't a wormhole that "connects" the original casting spot to its current location. As soon as the bag is closed, the spatial continuity that allows you to define a distance from a location outside the bag is lost. (whether that would fizzle the spell or not is unclear). As soon as you open the bag in location B, that spatial continuity is re-established and the "more than 10 feet from where you cast the spell" condition is met (assuming you're on the same plane as you cast it). If the wording was "if the object is moved more than 10 feet, the glyph...", then I think the trick would work. As it is, the limitation is unrelated to how much movement the object experiences.

Its also a bit unclear how distance works inside a BoH. Maximum volume is 64 cubic feet, but no shape is specified. so it might even fizzle inside.

just my $.02 on an interesting thought.
Funny thing. I left out a lot of details in my explanation of how to do this trick In the interest of brevity. There is an easy work around. Stick your hands in the bag while casting the spell. One of many details i left out.

The bag of holding thing is so basic. What BAFFLES me is the fact its the only thing people seem confused about involving the spell glyph trick. There are other hurdles that were FAR more tricky (not complicated. Just tricky) that NO ONE has asked about. The bag of holding thing being what people get stuck on bewilders me. Its not the only hurdle you jump for this amazing set up. Its just the only extra magic component you need.
 

I love familiars. I am playing a wizard right now who uses an owl (named Who).

But they're not optimal for scouting. For these reasons:

1. They die often. One swat and they're toast. One area effect and they're toast. So many things kill them.

And then you need time to re-summon them as a ritual. Which takes 1 hour and 10 minutes. In the dungeon we're in right now (White Plume Mountain) that's 11 wandering monster checks. And because you're casting a spell that whole time, you don't even get all the benefits of a short rest for it.

2. They're not nearly as good at stealth as the rogue. +3 and tiny size isn't bad, but it's no rogue. So they can get caught. And then...see #1.

3. They cannot open doors, or even lift things like rugs to look under it. That 3 strength and Tiny size and lack of a hand/fingers just doesn't cut it to do much. When a simple door stops you from scouting further, that can be an issue.

4. They have a range of 100 feet. Which is good, but sometimes it's nice to be able to go further than that.

5. You're deaf and blind while seeing through your familiar. Which means you're basically auto-surprised if foes come on your resting spot while you're telepathically looking through the eyes of your familiar.

I'd take a rogue over an owl to scout any day. Familiars are fantastic. But they're a poor-mans rogue for scouting. The real deal is better.

I definitely agree with a lot of this, but it's one-sided, because you focus solely on where they're worse.

Re: the individual points.

1. True - however, if your familiar is out in combat, unless the situation is kind of desperate or you don't really need them, you're doing it wrong. And they rarely get killed in scouting, and in any situation where they do, that's probably a situation where a Rogue would have taken a lot of HP of damage and even possibly been killed themselves.

2. Unarguable. Rogues are better at Stealth. It's not very plausible that a 6'4" 220lb Tiefling covered armour and weapons is, but he is. However, re: "see no.1", I would point out that unless you are fighting a particularly unusual foe, or your familiar is hilariously out-of-place, that's not likely to be the result of being discovered. It's less likely someone is going to murder a mouse than an owl, say.

3. Definitely true. Mice or the like can get under/through virtually any non-magical door, realistically, but they aren't owls, which are generally otherwise the most optimal kind of familiar.

4. Yes though this highlights an issue with Rogues too, that being that they have no way to communicate with the party, and you can let the familiar go further if you are willing to deal with communicating with it.

5. Not an issue unless you're solo and unprotected for some bizarre reason.

I think what you quite correctly demonstrate is for ultra-high-intensity dungeons (wandering monster checks every 10 minutes whilst stationary is berserk 1E-style stuff, in fact most 1E adventures had lower check rates as I recall), and probably any fairly intense dungeon, Rogue is your better option.

However that shows the problem. You're comparing a played character class, with an actual player behind it and so on, to a single spell from other characters.



Advantages familiars have include:

1) Even if spotted, many familiars will not cause enemies to react. There will be high-security situations where they will, but you can't just murder every raven, mouse or owl you see (I admit in a "semi-realistic" or "lived in" fantasy setting, owls might well be seen with suspicion :D ). Rogues are much less likely to be able to get away with this, though it's not unheard-of.

2) Many familiars can fly. This is huge outside dungeons. It's much more useful even than a Winged Tiefling Rogue or the like, even, because again, if people see a bird, they think nothing of it, even if penetrates their consciousness, whereas a some galumphing Tiefling lumbering through the skies will attract considerable attention (I play a Winged Tiefling Bard in one game, and I always try and get above where I'd like to fly to, if I can so I can glide in and hopefully be more stealthy as a result).

3) Familiars die easily, but if they die, the consequences are low. Rogues can penetrate further and do more, but if they get caught, they're somewhat likely to take considerable damage or even get killed (or captured) before they get away. All it takes is one good grapple from some Hobgoblin or whatever and it's basically all over. They do have good tools to escape at least, in 5E.

4) Familiars can rely what they see directly to the caster (within range). Rogues on the other hand, have to get back to the party, which can often be a whole other set of checks and so on. This is often more a meta-problem, because it can turn the game into "The Rogue's Big Adventure" for minutes or more, slow the game down, and bore people. I found actually giving our the Rogue in the group I run the equivalent of text-messaging (a stone tablet linked to another stone tablet, if he drew on it in chalk, the writing also appeared on the other, and vice-versa) actually made the game feel better and run faster, though I can see why such Earthdawn-y stuff isn't default part of D&D.

Really it's a lot like sending a small, cheap drone in a cyberpunk game like SR or CP2020 (more the latter, SR drones tend to be ludicrously overpriced and you can get feedback when they get destroyed, or could in the last edition I played), vs sending an actual person to stealth in. They both have their role, and both have limitations when substituting for the other.


The best possible scenario, in my experience is when you have two-three party members with excellent Stealth who can move together as a team, and who have a familiar with them (or better yet, the entire party, but that's rare - though Pass Without Trace will help a lot).
 




Funny thing. I left out a lot of details in my explanation of how to do this trick In the interest of brevity. There is an easy work around. Stick your hands in the bag while casting the spell. One of many details i left out.

The bag of holding thing is so basic. What BAFFLES me is the fact its the only thing people seem confused about involving the spell glyph trick. There are other hurdles that were FAR more tricky (not complicated. Just tricky) that NO ONE has asked about. The bag of holding thing being what people get stuck on bewilders me. Its not the only hurdle you jump for this amazing set up. Its just the only extra magic component you need.

For the record, as a DM, I'd never allow a glyph to be cast inside a bag of holding, regardless of the justifications a player presented to me. To me, It's a work-around meant to break the action/resource economy of the game.

Maybe if it was a big boss fight, I'd allow it once, after a specific quest to find a rare ritual to make it possible - that might be cool - but after that, I couldn't allow it.
 
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How do you figure?
LevelWis 12 and ExpertiseWis 16, raised to 20, no Expertise
155
577
999
131110
171310

And, anyway, Perception is not like, say, Persuasion. Having multiple party members with solid bonuses is extremely useful.

Lets not forget that from 11th level, our Rogue is never rolling lower than 10 on his Perception checks either thanks to reliable talent.
 

Advantages familiars have include:

1) Even if spotted, many familiars will not cause enemies to react. There will be high-security situations where they will, but you can't just murder every raven, mouse or owl you see (I admit in a "semi-realistic" or "lived in" fantasy setting, owls might well be seen with suspicion :D ). Rogues are much less likely to be able to get away with this, though it's not unheard-of.

2) Many familiars can fly. This is huge outside dungeons. It's much more useful even than a Winged Tiefling Rogue or the like, even, because again, if people see a bird, they think nothing of it, even if penetrates their consciousness, whereas a some galumphing Tiefling lumbering through the skies will attract considerable attention (I play a Winged Tiefling Bard in one game, and I always try and get above where I'd like to fly to, if I can so I can glide in and hopefully be more stealthy as a result).

3) Familiars die easily, but if they die, the consequences are low. Rogues can penetrate further and do more, but if they get caught, they're somewhat likely to take considerable damage or even get killed (or captured) before they get away. All it takes is one good grapple from some Hobgoblin or whatever and it's basically all over. They do have good tools to escape at least, in 5E.

4) Familiars can rely what they see directly to the caster (within range). Rogues on the other hand, have to get back to the party, which can often be a whole other set of checks and so on. This is often more a meta-problem, because it can turn the game into "The Rogue's Big Adventure" for minutes or more, slow the game down, and bore people. I found actually giving our the Rogue in the group I run the equivalent of text-messaging (a stone tablet linked to another stone tablet, if he drew on it in chalk, the writing also appeared on the other, and vice-versa) actually made the game feel better and run faster, though I can see why such Earthdawn-y stuff isn't default part of D&D.

Really it's a lot like sending a small, cheap drone in a cyberpunk game like SR or CP2020 (more the latter, SR drones tend to be ludicrously overpriced and you can get feedback when they get destroyed, or could in the last edition I played), vs sending an actual person to stealth in. They both have their role, and both have limitations when substituting for the other.


The best possible scenario, in my experience is when you have two-three party members with excellent Stealth who can move together as a team, and who have a familiar with them (or better yet, the entire party, but that's rare - though Pass Without Trace will help a lot).

A lot of good points here that you've made.

1) I was thinking more of a dungeon scenario (which is our most common adventure type these days, particularly with the move to online-only). In those scenarios, if a familiar is spotted it will be killed. If nothing else, because an owl is food.

2) Familiars flying is huge INSIDE dungeons as well. Dungeons often have traps or bridges or deadly ground which they can avoid this way. It's an advantage they have wherever they are. Though outdoors it can make that 100' range bothersome because you want them to fly far and up.

3) I agree it's more dangerous for the rogue to go out than the familiar. But given the rouge can sneak so much better than the familiar, the odds of being caught are much lower. A familiar can die from a simple dart trap that would be a nuisance to a rogue as well.

4) Yes, this is certainly an advantage. You need a spell like Rary's Telepathic Bond (a good ritual, though the casting time and duration can be a pain - at least the range is infinite) for the Rogue to operate that way. You can do it a bit with a ghostwise halfing (which I find to be one of the good choices for a rogue) but the range is rotten at only 1/3 of the range of the familiar.

And yes I agree it's sure nice to have everyone in the party with stealth. When my big clunky dwarf fighter in heavy plate managed to get his plate enchanted with the equivalent of Boots of Elvenkind, I did a jump for joy because I went from a huge burden to a bonus for the party when trying to sneak.

Overall, I agree with you that a familiar is great. I also think having a rogue for those times when you really need to scout ahead in a dungeon is better. Of course, an Arcane Eye spell is even better. But convincing your Wizard to burn a 4th level slot for that can be rough sometimes when they're looking at sacrificing a Polymorph use to do it.
 


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