What CAN'T you do with 4e?

There is one thing I don't understand. When 4th Edition was coming out, those looking forward to it were commenting on how great it was going to be to have a rule set that did not need to be tweeked or house-ruled (like 3.X was) to play...

...now that it's out, half the suggestions given in this thread and other threads here on ENWorld are tweeks (or could be considered "house rules").
 

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Andor said:
No, I don't really accept that basic premise. First because a single villain challanging the entire party is presumably at a higher level so that by the time my character has learned enough to pull off that stunt it's not that big a deal.
Except the math just doesn't work out. If I can do 10 damage now and I have 40 hitpoints, it works out perfectly if enemies have 40 hitpoints and do 10 damage to me as well. We each have around 4 rounds to win and luck pulls us through one way or another.

Now, if hitpoints go up by about 4 per level and damage goes up about 1 per level, it keeps everything even. Unfortunately, if you figure out that math based on that, then one creature who is the same level as the PCs dies in the first round(possibly before acting) against 4 ore more PCs of the same level.

Alright, so as you suggest, we use higher level monsters then. If hipoints go up at 4 per level as I suggested, then in order to be able to survive against 4 PCs doing 10 damage a round for 4 rounds then it needs at least 160 hitpoints. Which means it would have to be 30 levels higher than the PCs. Sure, you're thinking to just increase the number of hitpoints you gain per level to fix this. However, if you do, you must also increase the damage being dealt in order to make up for the extra hitpoints. Which ends up keeping the math the same.

Since the monster is 30 levels higher than the PCs, it is now doing 40 damage per hit, as it gains 1 damage per level. Which is enough to kill a PC on a single hit. Which creates a problem when the PCs are doing 10 less damage each round as they have one less member attacking each round.

On the other hand, if you let the creature follow different rules than the PC, you can create a creature that only does 20 damage per round but still has the 160 hitpoints. This make it a good enemy to fight the PCs. But it would make a really bad PC if the formula stays the same. Since you always need to account for the fact that 4-6 PCs are fighting against the one enemy.

Area of Effect attacks can break the math even more and become more complicated still.

Andor said:
Secondly 'game-breaking' in my experience almost never means that one player is monopolizing the table which would be bad, usually it's GM code for "Wah! They now have the power to change my world in ways I didn't think of and I want sole control over everything!"
Game-breaking could be either. Being able to do 200 damage to the enemies when enemies 30 levels above you only have 150 hitpoints is game breaking. Being able to find the villain and teleport to their location from anywhere on the planet is also game-breaking, just in a different way.

I dislike the fact that you've written off all DMs who want control of their games. In my game, I don't want FULL control over everything. I do want to have control over the majority of events happening in my game. I want to give the players options and then let them choose amongst what they think is the best option.

It's just a lot easier to DM a game where you can plan an adventure and know that at least 80% of what you plan will actually happen in game.

Especially for newer DMs coming up with a game that involves going through a couple of dungeon corridors and beating up monsters is a lot easier to keep track of than one where the PCs could visit any city in the entire universe on a whim and decide to come up with their own adventure whenever they wanted to.

Anything that helps the DM keep the PCs on track and doing what he had planned makes life easier for DMs. I know a lot of DMs here will probably make fun of anyone who can't adapt on the fly or who isn't skilled enough to plan an entire adventure based on what the players do. I don't think that DMs without these skills are somehow lesser, though.
 

Gallo22 said:
What can't 4th Edition do...

...be back wards compatable to my $2,000 worth of 3.x books.

3e wasn't backwards compatible with your 2e books, and 1e wasn't backwards compatible with your OD&D books*. And there were all sorts of fiddly changes between 1e -> 2e, and 3e->3.5e.

* Assuming you had them. Me, I've got tons of 3.5 books and a few 3.0 books; my even smaller number 2e books managed to get lost sometime when I was heading back and forth between my college dorm and my parents' house way back when. And since I started playing in college, I never played 1e or earlier.
 

drothgery said:
3e wasn't backwards compatible with your 2e books, and 1e wasn't backwards compatible with your OD&D books*. And there were all sorts of fiddly changes between 1e -> 2e, and 3e->3.5e.

You could do conversions very easily, though. "Hm, this 7th level elven fighter should be... a 7th level elven fighter with exactly the same ability scores." Many times, the majority of a caster's spell list could even stay the same.
 

pawsplay said:
You could do conversions very easily, though. "Hm, this 7th level elven fighter should be... a 7th level elven fighter with exactly the same ability scores." Many times, the majority of a caster's spell list could even stay the same.
Converting the character != Converting supplements. (Especially not game rule supplements)
(If this conversion is actually everything you care about, you can do that with every class that exists in 4E. This is only a subset of the 3E classes, but I am sure you can find a few classes in 1E or 2E you couldn't convert just using the core books, either..)
 

Mallus said:
Because you're constructing it badly. Specifically, in a way that results in removing interesting elements from play (you're requiring all abilities/items/wahoo be acquirable by PC's, so good luck running an LotR knockoff).

Never said it was. But you're the one demanding that all in-game abilities be player-accessible.

Where are you getting this nonsense from? If an inhuman creature (like, say, a ringwraith or Sauron, or Gandalf) has abilities my human PC cannot learn that's just fine and I never said it wasn't. I don't expect to be able to deadlift as much as a giant either.

If a human NPC has the ability to brew a potion or animate a zombie or conjure a chipmunk then I want an in game explanation for why my character can't learn it. "Animating zombies is a divine gift of Orcus and you need to devote yoursef to an evil god to do so." is a valid reason why not. "Because you can only learn that at NPC vocational" school is not.
 


drothgery said:
3e wasn't backwards compatible with your 2e books, and 1e wasn't backwards compatible with your OD&D books*. And there were all sorts of fiddly changes between 1e -> 2e, and 3e->3.5e.

* Assuming you had them. Me, I've got tons of 3.5 books and a few 3.0 books; my even smaller number 2e books managed to get lost sometime when I was heading back and forth between my college dorm and my parents' house way back when. And since I started playing in college, I never played 1e or earlier.


Perhaps, but that's not what the thread is about!
 

Alright, so as you suggest, we use higher level monsters then.

That's a huge flaw in the argument right there.

Guess what 4e does? Gives you more monsters. Perhaps a party of 4 shuold be challenged by a monster force of 4, because when you have more people you obviously have some sort of advantage over something standing alone.

Leaving aside everything else, you just use more monsters, and you have equal sides again.
 

Qualidar said:
Here, Mourn, let me phrase it so you can understand my point: 4e makes is 30 times the work to design a character class than 3e, which isn't worth the effort.

You can do the exact same style of class creation you claimed to do in 3e: steal stuff from other classes.

Just because 4e has more stuff going on in each class doesn't meant you can't just be lazy like in 3e and just cherry-pick other classes to make your "new" class.
 

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