What makes a successful superhero game?

[overgeeked]

This may seem a bit theoretical, but it is how you can have Rose Tyler and Doctor who play effectively together in DWAITAS. And it's a solid option for FATE-based supers games.

Yes, and it absolutely does not work in that game. The Doctor still runs around outshining all other PCs constantly. Because C7 forgot to include anything like a cap or limit on story points. So yes, the Doctor starts with fewer story points, but, importantly...the Doctor can earn story points at exactly the same rate or faster than the other characters. So it looks like it works on paper but it doesn't actually work in play.

For example, the 12th Doctor starts the game with 8 story points while all the companions start the game with 12 story points. There's no limit to who can earn sp and no limit to how many sp a character can earn. So the Doctor outshines the companion by having wildly higher stats across the board from the jump and then also gets to earn sp just like the companion and is only 4 behind at the start.

And you could make an excellent case that it emulates the way comic book writers portray their heroes as their powers wax and wane depending, to a very large extent, on who they are up against.

If story points were the whole mechanic of the game and there were some way to hard cap the more powerful characters while giving the less powerful characters a higher cap, easier access to sp, more ways to spend sp, etc then it just might work.

 

[overgeeked]

I'm not convinced that a successful superhero game has to represent all power levels, from Hawkeye to Galactus. A lot of painful failures have resulted from trying.

I do think that a successful superhero game has to successfully emulate the tropes people are looking for in a superhero game. Not everyone will agree on the full list, but basically, I should be able to pick up a standard issue of a major comic book, say an issue of Spider-Man or Robin, and be able to replicate the hero crouching in the rafters of a warehouse, watching thugs and then have the PC jump down into their midst and have a satisfying combat that doesn't take all day to adjudicate. (City of Heroes, which I think missed the mark on a lot of superhero stuff, did this aspect very, very well.)

I think combat that takes as long as 4E D&D's did is a mistake, because while the tactical stuff might be fun for some players, careful tactics aren't really a hallmark of superhero comics, fast-paced action is.

And what other scenes the RPG is able to replicate can vary, but it shouldn't be like D&D in that D&D is mostly good at modeling what D&D is like. A superhero RPG should be able to replicate a superhero comic (or movie or TV show, given that it's the 21st century).

All else is details, IMO.

I think the tropes are the easiest part. If you're a comic book nerd you can rattle off dozens and be fine. It's making the mechanics reinforce those tropes and making it a fun game that's the hard part. I do think you need to be able to handle both Batman and Superman or Hawkeye and Thor on the same team or the superhero game is a nonstarter.

But, as you say, it needs to be fast. It's one where I'd push for combat being as close to real time as possible. Make a declaration, roll the dice, maybe some quick math, then move on. No long turns or detailed mechanics or egregious math. Bam bam bam. Something like Wushu would do this brilliantly, and has, but it's not that satisfying as a game.

 

[Elvish Lore]

I can't stand physics engines in rpgs so any superhero game that does NOT focus on how far the hero can throw or how much weight the bad guy can pick up or how much falling damage the PCs get from Height X, interests me more than otherwise.

Hero and Champions convinced multiple generations of gamers that superhero games should be physics engines and nothing more. It's awful.

 

[overgeeked]

I'm not super familiar with a lot of different superhero TTRPGs as it's not really my genre of choice. I do think the more "simulation" oriented a system is the harder it becomes to have heroes of differing power levels that can work together without the more powerful heroes performing at a scale that completely outshines anything the lower powered heroes can do. The less the system is built to "simulate realistic physical outcomes" and the more it's built to "emulate the superhero genre" the better it will be at, well, emulating the genre. The caveat being that it is a game that is trying to emulate the entirety of the superhero genre. If the game is built to emulate a lesser aspect of the genre, say only "street level" heroes, then it can be more "simulationist" in nature as the disparity of power level between heroes is much narrower than in say an Avengers or Justice League game. Like I said though, my experience with different superhero games is somewhat limited, so my opinion is less relevant than those with ample experience. If I do run a superhero game though, I want it to feature all levels of superheroes, so a more narrative oriented game makes it much easier to do. Cheers!

Yeah. I've definitely been there. I fluctuate between utterly minimalist rules and pure narrative to something like Marvel Super Heroes in levels of crunch for superheroes. My utter limit was M&M 3E, but that one broke me. I tried and tried and tried but it just lost me. I loved that they brought forward the DC Heroes AP chart and released it under the OGL. That's absolutely fantastic. It's great stuff for a little bit of grounding. But the character creation in M&M 3E is just way, way too much for me.

I absolutely love the DC Heroes AP chart and the way it can be used to quickly do weights, distances, and time. How far can Superman throw a 747? DCH has Superman at STR 25, a 747 weighs 13 APs, 25-13=12, so 12 APs of distance or about 7.6 miles. I don't need a lot of mechanics. I don't need lots of math for character creation. And I honestly prefer Marvel Super Heroes for how much lighter and quicker the core gameplay is, one roll and one look up vs one roll and two look ups...but damn. It brings superheroes to life in a way no other quick little subsystem has before. That AP chart is just magical.

 

[Theory of Games]

I can't stand physics engines in rpgs so any superhero game that does NOT focus on how far the hero can throw or how much weight the bad guy can pick up or how much falling damage the PCs get from Height X, interests me more than otherwise.

Hero and Champions convinced multiple generations of gamers that superhero games should be physics engines and nothing more. It's awful.

Champions and similar games presented a certain playstyle that has been embraced and enjoyed by many gamers. Of course, everyone isn't going to enjoy that playstyle, just as everyone isn't going to enjoy MASKS or Marvel Heroic RP. What's great is there are so many superhero ttrpgs to choose from

 

[Thomas Shey]

I can't stand physics engines in rpgs so any superhero game that does NOT focus on how far the hero can throw or how much weight the bad guy can pick up or how much falling damage the PCs get from Height X, interests me more than otherwise.

Hero and Champions convinced multiple generations of gamers that superhero games should be physics engines and nothing more. It's awful.

Anyone who thinks Hero is a physics engine has a very bizarre idea of physics. A simple examination of the damage to lift ratio of Strength shows that.

Now, if you want to say you want narrative expression rather than representative expression, that's fine, but let's drop the "physics engine" nonsense in reference to Hero, shall we? I can point at at least two supers games that function somewhat like a physics engine, but Hero isn't one of them; neither is M&M or a number of other representative supers games. They're representing the way powers and such tend to work in supers settings rather than the dramatic tropes primarily (though they also have some degree of representation for that too), but the way those powers work is very much also a genre trope; its got nothing to do with "physics" in any meaningful way. In fact it usually produces results that the occupants of the worlds involved don't realize or acknowledge is true.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the tropes are the easiest part. If you're a comic book nerd you can rattle off dozens and be fine.

You'd think, but City of Heroes/Villains decided that no one in their superhero game would have secret identities and would spend all their time working on crafting. And we've certainly seen superhero movies where it seems very much like those in charge were not just confused about superhero tropes, but may have actually hated superhero comics.

 

[overgeeked]

You'd think, but City of Heroes/Villains decided that no one in their superhero game would have secret identities and would spend all their time working on crafting.

It’s an MMO convention. Clearly something that doesn’t translate well. What was the fishing mini game like?

And we've certainly seen superhero movies where it seems very much like those in charge were not just confused about superhero tropes, but may have actually hated superhero comics.

Yeah. It’s a weird phenomenon. Like comedians who don’t think comedy is worthwhile so try to become serious actors or whatever. People in comics outside the big two seem to loath superheroes. Even some people working on superhero stuff from the big two seem to loath the genre. It’s really weird.