D&D 5E What rule(s) is 5e missing?

[Hriston]

From the game that I'm in, rules for how to run Intimidation. Our Paladin tried to get some bandits to stand down since they would likely end up slaughtered for no reason and we had to take some time to figure out what DCs should be and what those effects would be.

In the end, the GM made the paladin make an Intimidation check against the bandit's Wisdom Save mod +10. He gave advantage on a later check when the bandits started getting slaughtered. It worked, but this was a new GM who had to really think about how to handle the mechanics when this could have been a simple check that kept the momentum of the scene going.

Social Interaction rules are in the DMG, starting on p 244. They suggest a DC 20 Charisma check to get hostile creatures to cooperate as long as they aren't taking a risk or sacrificing anything by doing so.

Your DM might also want to check out the rules for Morale on p 273, which is a DC 10 Wisdom save under certain circumstances and helps the DM decide when NPCs give up fighting and flee or surrender.

 

[James Gasik]

Wow. A DC 20. That's totally worth attempting, lol.

 

[overgeeked]

In Matt Coville's Flee, Mortals! big fat monster book, he implemented minion rules in which the minions have normal hit points but drop to 0 if they take any damage. It makes sense given their explanation: some spells (like sleep) interact in weird ways when you specifically give minions 1 hit point.

The minion rules are bad. They do basically no damage and are only there to eat up XP budget and make the PCs look good. Waste of a stat block and pages on the minion rules. And I say that as a fan of Matt’s stuff. Better to just narrate the PCs wading through swarms of minions.

 

[Reynard]

The minion rules are bad. They do basically no damage and are only there to eat up XP budget and make the PCs look good. Waste of a stat block and pages on the minion rules. And I say that as a fan of Matt’s stuff. Better to just narrate the PCs wading through swarms of minions.

I like them. They remind me of Savage Worlds, where typical enemies are one hit kills but still have the potential to hurt you. 5E PCs are not scared enough, and a couple dozen goblin archers can put fear into them while minion rules mean you don't have to spend 2 sessions on that one fight.

 

[overgeeked]

I like them. They remind me of Savage Worlds, where typical enemies are one hit kills but still have the potential to hurt you. 5E PCs are not scared enough, and a couple dozen goblin archers can put fear into them while minion rules mean you don't have to spend 2 sessions on that one fight.

Uh…unless you’re altering Matt’s minion rules there’s nothing about them that will “put fear” into the PCs. Once the group lands its one hit and it does 1 hp of damage per minion, your players will laugh and wade through them…fearless as ever.

 

[Hriston]

Wow. A DC 20. That's totally worth attempting, lol.

It’s one of the typical DCs. Do you never attempt to do anything that’s hard?

 

[James Gasik]

I just want to point out that this is a game where a 20 Charisma final tier character with a +6 proficiency mod has a 40% chance to fail that roll. Most characters have a lot worse chances.

A simple "hey let's work together unless we have good reasons not to" shouldn't be an extremely hard check, and I can certainly imagine players, after trying it a few times and not rolling 15 or better on the die to realize it's just not worth the effort.

 

[cbwjm]

I just want to point out that this is a game where a 20 Charisma final tier character with a +6 proficiency mod has a 40% chance to fail that roll. Most characters have a lot worse chances.

A simple "hey let's work together unless we have good reasons not to" shouldn't be an extremely hard check, and I can certainly imagine players, after trying it a few times and not rolling 15 or better on the die to realize it's just not worth the effort.

The social interaction rules actually stagger the results using DCs of 0 (basically a failure in the case of people hostile to you, they actively oppose your progress), 10, and 20. Getting help from others who are indifferent or friendly to the party is easier and how the players form their argument might also get advantage on the roll. Make the DC 10 check, and though the hostile people won't help you, they won't oppose you.

 

[James Gasik]

The social interaction rules actually stagger the results using DCs of 0 (basically a failure in the case of people hostile to you, they actively oppose your progress), 10, and 20. Getting help from others who are indifferent or friendly to the party is easier and how the players form their argument might also get advantage on the roll. Make the DC 10 check, and though the hostile people won't help you, they won't oppose you.

I understand this, but I was just saying what a DC 20 check means- if that's the desired end goal, saying "well you need a 20" still makes it a Hail Mary.

That you might not need a 20 is nice and all, of course, but it's not relevant when you actually do.

The fact that you can Help does change things a little, though that's as much up to the DM as deciding whether or not you adjusted the attitude of the party or not. If everything is working in an ideal situation, success is a lot easier.

-As an aside, I have seen DM's who are very resistant, however, to allowing players to pad their odds in social interactions- just last week I had a fun conversation with people who felt that Guidance, for example, should never be allowed to affect a negotiation (and a few who seem to feel that allowing Help out of combat is somehow abusive).

 

[Seramus]

-As an aside, I have seen DM's who are very resistant, however, to allowing players to pad their odds in social interactions- just last week I had a fun conversation with people who felt that Guidance, for example, should never be allowed to affect a negotiation (and a few who seem to feel that allowing Help out of combat is somehow abusive).

I have heard about DM's who won't allow a dog to Help you keep watch at night!