D&D General What spells should a god have?

[Shardstone]

The entire Cleric Spell list, plus all their domain spells, with unlimited spell slots.

 

[dave2008]

The entire Cleric Spell list, plus all their domain spells, with unlimited spell slots.

I get you, but that is not the question I am asking. I am not asking what gods can do, but what spells make you think: "yep, a god should be able to do that" I am looking for what what you think are iconic divine abilities as manifested in the 5e spell list.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I would also suggest that each god be able to ignore concentration on one spell (it would be specific for each god, like darkness for Zehir, and I can see an effective "mass hex" or "mass hunters mark" being pretty popular). If they can spam a concentration spell that might freak the party's casters out. Alternatively or maybe in conjunction with this, give each god a spell with a minute casting time that he/she/it can cast in one round

 

[Shardstone]

I get you, but that is not the question I am asking. I am not asking what gods can do, but what spells make you think: "yep, a god should be able to do that" I am looking for what what you think are iconic divine abilities as manifested in the 5e spell list.

It's hard for me to see what spells on the Cleric spell list don't apply to gods. Most of the spells are pretty holy themed.

 

[Celebrim]

It's hard for me to see what spells on the Cleric spell list don't apply to gods. Most of the spells are pretty holy themed.

Depends entirely whether you think that holiness is a universal attribute of the gods.

 

[Celebrim]

I would also suggest that each god be able to ignore concentration on one spell (it would be specific for each god, like darkness for Zehir, and I can see an effective "mass hex" or "mass hunters mark" being pretty popular). If they can spam a concentration spell that might freak the party's casters out.

Whenever I've thought about this problem in the past, the real issue has come down to the fact that if you are playing a character that is more god-like than say Marvel's Thor, you run into the problem that their mental capacity and mental state is incomprehensible and incapable of being simulated by mere mortal minds. The more god-like they character becomes, the more they absolutely would need to be able to multi-task in a way that the human just can't. Are you dealing with a superhuman immortal, who like Thor despite his vast prowess is still basically just human in mental prowess, or are you dealing with something that is strikingly deific? If the former, you can probably game it. If the later, then you probably can't.

The other issue you are going to run into is that if you don't silo the abilities, then you don't have a social game, because no one is dependent on anyone for anything else. That is, in something like a Marvel movie, Thor needs Heimdel and can usefully partner with Loki, and even forms useful partnerships with mortals that have skills he doesn't have. But a Thor that has access to basically the whole of the mortal magic list at will, has very little need to partner with anyone else.

 

[dave2008]

It's hard for me to see what spells on the Cleric spell list don't apply to gods. Most of the spells are pretty holy themed.

To clarify, it not that my gods can't cast these spells (any god can in fact cast any mortal spell - there is just a cost to it), but whats spells are free and 2nd nature. What does a god need to communicate or command or threaten or inspire it its mortal worshipers, but costs it nothing?

 

[dave2008]

Whenever I've thought about this problem in the past, the real issue has come down to the fact that if you are playing a character that is more god-like than say Marvel's Thor, you run into the problem that their mental capacity and mental state is incomprehensible and incapable of being simulated by mere mortal minds. The more god-like they character becomes, the more they absolutely would need to be able to multi-task in a way that the human just can't. Are you dealing with a superhuman immortal, who like Thor despite his vast prowess is still basically just human in mental prowess, or are you dealing with something that is strikingly deific? If the former, you can probably game it. If the later, then you probably can't.

That is an issue, but I think of it as the player is responsible for only a party of the deities consciousness. It would be simpler to go with a mythology / marvel approach, but that is not what I am going for. Could be a mistake, but it is what I am interested in.

The other issue you are going to run into is that if you don't silo the abilities, then you don't have a social game, because no one is dependent on anyone for anything else. That is, in something like a Marvel movie, Thor needs Heimdel and can usefully partner with Loki, and even forms useful partnerships with mortals that have skills he doesn't have. But a Thor that has access to basically the whole of the mortal magic list at will, has very little need to partner with anyone else.

I think your wrong on this one. My version of deities are much more "powerful" than Marvel Thor, but there is a definite need for pantheons. They are not omniscient nor omnipotent, not even greater gods (or overgods for that matter).

 

[Celebrim]

What does a god need to communicate or command or threaten or inspire it its mortal worshipers, but costs it nothing?

High charisma? Proficiency at Intimidation?

 

[Celebrim]

It would be simpler to go with a mythology / marvel approach, but that is not what I am going for. Could be a mistake, but it is what I am interested in.

By all means be ambitious. If you overcome the challenges and run a successful campaign, I'll want to hear about it. I wouldn't have already thought about this sort of stuff if I wasn't somewhat interested in your goals.

 

[dave2008]

High charisma? Proficiency at Intimidation?

I was talking about what spells you cheeky monkey That is all I am interested in for this post.

However, the more I think about it, the fewer spells I am inclined to give them. Maybe this weekend I can wrap this part up and post my draft list.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Maybe this will help:

Since I think a god should have a godly realm, gate is a good spell (even if it only works for the godly realm). I could see greater gods being able to spam gate for mass summoning of minions (it is hard to block a bunch of gates). I don't see demigods having this spell for free (although I could see them getting demiplane for free). Since most gods have enemies and emptying your godly realm of your army could be a quick way to lose the realm, they don't do that very often (or if they do, it is a quick shock and awe).

Mythology gives a lot of gods at least a limited shapechange, and when 5e makes it a power, it takes an action just like the spell, so that might be six of one, half dozen of the other.

I figure gods can be like old school D&D wizards and blow a couple of spells in the morning, with mind blank and true seeing looking like good ones to do, unless you give the gods similar abilities.

For sped up spells, hallow seems like a good one. If a god hangs around a spot for an hour not casting any other spell, that spot is hallowed (obviously gods can chose not to do this). I think of it as the god warping local physics to be like that in his/her/its godly realm just by hanging around.

You could probably make up spell lists for all good gods, bad gods, lawful gods, chaotic gods, and neutral gods

 

[Lanefan]

That is not what I am looking for though. I've got that covered in other area. I am just interested in what spells people think are iconic to deities.

That's just it - simple spells as mortals know them are beneath the deities' dignity.

Or, put another way and in direct answer to the thread title: any they bloody well want, without limit as to range, frequency, or damage dealt; usable at will; uninterruptable (unless by another deity); cast by thought alone (thus no VSM components required) at any - or every! - point in the initiative order the deity desires; and irresistable except by other deities (all saves by mortals are auto-failed unless for some reason the casting deity wants to give the target a sporting chance).

 

[dave2008]

That's just it - simple spells as mortals know them are beneath the deities' dignity.

Well that depends on how you conceive of deities. That is basically true for intermediate and higher deities and partially true for lesser deities (in this concept), but demigods still have a need for mortal magic.

Or, put another way and in direct answer to the thread title: any they bloody well want, without limit as to range, frequency, or damage dealt; usable at will; uninterruptable (unless by another deity); cast by thought alone (thus no VSM components required) at any - or every! - point in the initiative order the deity desires; and irresistable except by other deities (all saves by mortals are auto-failed unless for some reason the casting deity wants to give the target a sporting chance).

That, to me, is uninteresting and doesn't fit the fiction of RL mythology or D&D mythology. Most gods of myth and D&D have real limits to their abilities (with the exception of D&D 2e greater deities and I guess Yahweh).

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I figure there might be a difference between what they can do in their home realm, and what they can do elsewhere.

In their home realm, I'd say that any rank of deity should have the abilities of a 10th-level cleric, with any appropriate domains. I'd also grant them leeway to cast pretty much any lower level (including cantrips) or non-combat spell that seemed thematically appropriate without feeling a need to write it down as an ability first. This would all be in addition to the kinds of special abilities that official 5e statblocks might include.

I also say they can just straight up cause non-spell effects that fit within their portfolio while within their home realm.

Any non-deity capable of empowering warlocks should have the abilities of a 10th-level warlock of the appropriate pact when in their home domain.

This allows for deities that have a particular emphasis in a type of magic to excel by being better than 10th-level at it.

When outside of their home domain, I'd probably limit their capabilities to what is in their statblocks, plus the free thematic low-level and non-combat spells.

That's my way of balancing making things make sense with sticking as close to the written rules as I can justify.

It's worth noting that if you don't grant all deities and warlock patrons access to 20th level class abilities, you are saying that they can grant or teach abilities that they don't possess OR that some of the abilities aren't directly "granted". That's fine for me, because I take the latter approach in any event. Divine power makes you a cleric, and after that you don't need any direct agency from the deity to do your thing. They (probably through an intermediary lineage of priests) just grant you access to the same source of power they themselves have, and might keep an eye on you and punish you if you misuse it in their name (depending on the deity). Same basic concept with warlock patrons. It's Poof You're a warlock!, and now you can level up all by yourself. Any actual agreement is something that must be enforced by the patron actively enforcing it--they can't just take away your powers, and if you're high enough level you might even have powers they don't! (Though it's rather unlikely you are going to individually be more powerful than them overall, given the write up of arch-fiends in 5e.)

 

[dave2008]

I figure there might be a difference between what they can do in their home realm, and what they can do elsewhere.

In their home realm, I'd say that any rank of deity should have the abilities of a 10th-level cleric, with any appropriate domains. I'd also grant them leeway to cast pretty much any lower level (including cantrips) or non-combat spell that seemed thematically appropriate without feeling a need to write it down as an ability first. This would all be in addition to the kinds of special abilities that official 5e statblocks might include.

I also say they can just straight up cause non-spell effects that fit within their portfolio while within their home realm.

Any non-deity capable of empowering warlocks should have the abilities of a 10th-level warlock of the appropriate pact when in their home domain.

This allows for deities that have a particular emphasis in a type of magic to excel by being better than 10th-level at it.

When outside of their home domain, I'd probably limit their capabilities to what is in their statblocks, plus the free thematic low-level and non-combat spells.

That's my way of balancing making things make sense with sticking as close to the written rules as I can justify.

It's worth noting that if you don't grant all deities and warlock patrons access to 20th level class abilities, you are saying that they can grant or teach abilities that they don't possess OR that some of the abilities aren't directly "granted". That's fine for me, because I take the latter approach in any event. Divine power makes you a cleric, and after that you don't need any direct agency from the deity to do your thing. They (probably through an intermediary lineage of priests) just grant you access to the same source of power they themselves have, and might keep an eye on you and punish you if you misuse it in their name (depending on the deity). Same basic concept with warlock patrons. It's Poof You're a warlock!, and now you can level up all by yourself. Any actual agreement is something that must be enforced by the patron actively enforcing it--they can't just take away your powers, and if you're high enough level you might even have powers they don't! (Though it's rather unlikely you are going to individually be more powerful than them overall, given the write up of arch-fiends in 5e.)

I have clarified this a few times, but you might have missed it (maybe I should put it in the OP): a god can cast any spell at will, but it has a cost. I am interested in some innate spells that would have no cost, bit are iconic, in a generic sense, to deities. What spells does any god need to be a god?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I have clarified this a few times, but you might have missed it (maybe I should put it in the OP): a god can cast any spell at will, but it has a cost. I am interested in some innate spells that would have no cost, bit are iconic, in a generic sense, to deities. What spells does any god need to be a god?

That's a rather tough one. My gut instinct is to say (from that perspective), "Everything on the cleric spell list". But I know that's not exactly what you're going for. It's actually rather difficult to come up with some that every god should have.

Spells that involve life and death (ie, bringing back the dead and making things dead)? That makes sense as a divine prerogative in general...but it really seems like it doesn't fit all of them. Most things will fall into that category. I'll give it a shot though.

Going down the cleric list from highest level to lowest level:
*Gate
Holy Aura
Temple of the Gods
*Plane Shift
*Etherealness
Divine Word
*Word of Recall
True Seeing
Planar Ally
Forbiddance
Sending
*Scrying
Planar Binding
Holy Weapon
Hallow
Dispel Evil and Good
Banishment
Magic Circle
Dispel Magic
*Clairvoyance
Protection from Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Evil and Good
Command
Ceremony
Bless
Thaumaturgy

*I put in some planar travel and remote viewing spells, since I see that as fairly automatic, but you might not want those as automatic divine abilities.

Going down the non-cleric list:
Imprisonment
Antipathy/Sympathy
Demiplane
Teleport
Contingency
Dream
Counterspell

I kind of think wish should probably be on the list...but that means "everything of 8th level or less", so it's not very useful in this sort of examination in actuality.

 

[dave2008]

That's a rather tough one. My gut instinct is to say (from that perspective), "Everything on the cleric spell list". But I know that's not exactly what you're going for. It's actually rather difficult to come up with some that every god should have.

Spells that involve life and death (ie, bringing back the dead and making things dead)? That makes sense as a divine prerogative in general...but it really seems like it doesn't fit all of them. Most things will fall into that category. I'll give it a shot though.

Going down the cleric list from highest level to lowest level:
*Gate
Holy Aura
Temple of the Gods
*Plane Shift
*Etherealness
Divine Word
*Word of Recall
True Seeing
Planar Ally
Forbiddance
Sending
*Scrying
Planar Binding
Holy Weapon
Hallow
Dispel Evil and Good
Banishment
Magic Circle
Dispel Magic
*Clairvoyance
Protection from Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Evil and Good
Command
Ceremony
Bless
Thaumaturgy

*I put in some planar travel and remote viewing spells, since I see that as fairly automatic, but you might not want those as automatic divine abilities.

Going down the non-cleric list:
Imprisonment
Antipathy/Sympathy
Demiplane
Teleport
Contingency
Dream
Counterspell

I kind of think wish should probably be on the list...but that means "everything of 8th level or less", so it's not very useful in this sort of examination in actuality.

Very helpful, matches some of what I already have on my list and some new ones too. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Maxperson]

I would have to do some research to see why that world salad didn't correspond pretty closely to what I just said, but to make it clear, I'm suggesting a VERY limited set of universal divine abilities, possibly approaching zero.

I'm suggesting that if you are the god of Matter, then that's pretty much all you do and what you do.

I've always preferred the first incarnation of the Immortals rules, where if the spell was in your sphere it cost X power points, if it was close to your sphere it was X times 2, if it was farther away it was X times 4, and if it was an opposing element, it was X times 8. Gods shouldn't be so restricted as to only be able to use fire spells if they are of the fire sphere.

 

[Maxperson]

As I am quasi converting the Immortal Rules, that is not what I am doing. I am using the Spheres (Matter, Energy, Thought, Time, & Entropy), which I call Authority as the prime definer of a gods power. A deities 'portfolio" is their Areas of Influence (domains) within their Authority.

Also, most of their power and ability is beyond mortal spell casting.

I forgot that you were going for Immortals earlier. Are you going with the first edition where they use power per spell, or later when they just spend some power to cast mortal spells all day long?