D&D 5E What would be your preferred format for the core rules of 5E?

[TrippyHippy]

There's also no hardcover option. Even experienced RPGers pick up the box.
The Doctor Who box also serves another purpose: keeping the softcover books protected and all the loose leaf sheets together.
The box is not so much a "beginner box" as "a game in a box". The newbie friendly design is irrelevant; every RPG *could* be someone's first so you have to write the core books with that in mind.


I'm not sure what your point is here.

Yes, as, you can release a newbie friendly box. It is an option. It's not impossible.
My point was that I did not think it was necessary any longer or the best use of design time. Everyone seems to think a beginner set is a must have product. That it's something that is as essential as the PHB.
I also don't think it's the best way to get people into the RPG.


So are small plastic cases, why not put D&D to one of those?
The thing is, we don't want people buying D&D thinking it's a traditional board game. That confuses people.

Boxed sets put up a barrier between new people and the game: the price of the box.
Starter boxes increase the cost to begin playing: the box then the regular books.
Boxed sets have a lower amount of content for their price.

They're not really worth the effort of creating.

I'm having a hardback Doctor Who rulebook delivered in about March next year, incidentally.

I do think your views tend to fly in the face of what a number of companies have been trying to do recently regarding their box set releases.

 

[Jester David]

I'm having a hardback Doctor Who rulebook delivered in about March next year, incidentally.

Which is limited edition, so it's not the standard.

I do think your views tend to fly in the face of what a number of companies have been trying to do recently regarding their box set releases.

A lot of people have fond memories of the D&D Red Box and want to recreate that experience. Which is nice but awkward as boxed sets have a much smaller profit margin, and trying to recreate the experience for kids a generation younger never works.

And a pricey boxed set is a needless barrier to play. Because people aren't going to just drop money on a game they barely heard of or never tried. They'll Google it. Check out the website. So the best way to get people interested is make sure the website is set up for new people: a good FAQ, demo products, videos of play, and more. Get people hooked for free.
If people have tried the game (likely via a group) then they don't need a starter set because the other players can walk them through the game.

An introductory set is fine IF that doubles as the full product that everyone buys. But D&D has a reputation for hardcover books. I don't think WotC could fully switch to softcovers in a box.
But making an expensive product that many people might skip for the full game is a risk. It's easier to make it a luxury item, something to give to people that you don't expect them to buy themselves.

Paizo is is a good example.
They decided to do a box because the Core Rulebook was designed for the (expected) rare 3e holdouts and no new players. But they didn't price it for young people to buy themselves, but a much higher giftable price. An all-in-one set to get people who have never played before started. But the box also has content usable after the player has moved onto the full Rulebook.
To justify the expense, Paizo cut corners keeping the costs low: it was written in house (salaried staff they were paying anyway so they could add extra words), used recycled art, etc.

Most boxed sets limit themselves to a 32 page book and 64 page book for 96 pages total of content. In comparison, the limited game in Ghosts of Dragonspear castle needed something like 150 pages to cover play. So it's never going to be a "full" game.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Which is limited edition, so it's not the standard.


A lot of people have fond memories of the D&D Red Box and want to recreate that experience. Which is nice but awkward as boxed sets have a much smaller profit margin, and trying to recreate the experience for kids a generation younger never works.

And a pricey boxed set is a needless barrier to play. Because people aren't going to just drop money on a game they barely heard of or never tried. They'll Google it. Check out the website. So the best way to get people interested is make sure the website is set up for new people: a good FAQ, demo products, videos of play, and more. Get people hooked for free.
If people have tried the game (likely via a group) then they don't need a starter set because the other players can walk them through the game.

An introductory set is fine IF that doubles as the full product that everyone buys. But D&D has a reputation for hardcover books. I don't think WotC could fully switch to softcovers in a box.
But making an expensive product that many people might skip for the full game is a risk. It's easier to make it a luxury item, something to give to people that you don't expect them to buy themselves.

Paizo is is a good example.
They decided to do a box because the Core Rulebook was designed for the (expected) rare 3e holdouts and no new players. But they didn't price it for young people to buy themselves, but a much higher giftable price. An all-in-one set to get people who have never played before started. But the box also has content usable after the player has moved onto the full Rulebook.
To justify the expense, Paizo cut corners keeping the costs low: it was written in house (salaried staff they were paying anyway so they could add extra words), used recycled art, etc.

Most boxed sets limit themselves to a 32 page book and 64 page book for 96 pages total of content. In comparison, the limited game in Ghosts of Dragonspear castle needed something like 150 pages to cover play. So it's never going to be a "full" game.

You appear to be arguing from authority, but you aren't actually backing it up with evidence from the companies or sales figures themselves. Flatly, it's the middle of Christmas and I don't want to get into a major debate over this, but I do think that the big fat textbook model is a turnoff to casual gamers, as is the need to buy multiple core books in order to play. On a personal level, as I have said already I'd personally want a pdf, but that there needs to be a (decent) introduction box, possibly released in conjunction with books. Eclecticism, in other words.

 

[Herobizkit]

I voted "Other".

I want to see an official online SRD where everything is included at no cost.

Pipe dreams, I know.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

The traditional three books have three major barriers to entry:

1. The shelf full of textbooks is intimidating.
2. The $120 entry cost (assuming $40 books).
3. No clear starting point.

The best thing they could do for adoption is to have a single, obvious core product that everything else builds upon, and that costs about the same as Settlers of Catan or Dominion. This product would be Dungeons & Dragons, and we would all buy it first.

 

[Umbran]

The traditional three books have three major barriers to entry:

1. The shelf full of textbooks is intimidating.

In the store, you mean? The shopper is facing a wall full of brightly colored stuff no matter what they're buying - change every game on the shelf to a boxed set, and you'd still have an intimidating display.

And how many are buying in a store, anyway? Online sales don't face a shelf at all!

2. The $120 entry cost (assuming $40 books).

Weak assumption. The 4e books have a list price of $35, and typically retail at Amazon and Barnes and Noble for $25. In the past, WotC worked an introductory price of $20 for a PHB, leading to an entry cost *half* of what you suggest.

3. No clear starting point.

This is often posited. What evidence (rather than conjecture or anecdote) is there that folks really have difficulty finding the starting point?

 

[Kobold Stew]

The traditional three books have three major barriers to entry:

1. The shelf full of textbooks is intimidating.
2. The $120 entry cost (assuming $40 books).
3. No clear starting point.

I just don't see this.

Within the traditional 3 books, the point of entry is one book, the PHB.
It is the clear starting point, with (using your assumption) a $40 entry point. It does not leave anyone intimidated by their bookshelf.

Four out of five players at the table only need a PHB. Sure, I'd prefer it if the price point were at $20-25 for the basic book, but that's the imagination engine for new players.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

In the store, you mean? The shopper is facing a wall full of brightly colored stuff no matter what they're buying - change every game on the shelf to a boxed set, and you'd still have an intimidating display.

And how many are buying in a store, anyway? Online sales don't face a shelf at all!

The reason a shelf full of hardcovers is intimidating is that a hardcover rulebook implies a lot of complexity and required reading. You and I know that a D&D book is more encyclopedia than rulebook, but we're talking about new players. Game boxes simply don't give the same impression.

Weak assumption. The 4e books have a list price of $35, and typically retail at Amazon and Barnes and Noble for $25. In the past, WotC worked an introductory price of $20 for a PHB, leading to an entry cost *half* of what you suggest.

Book prices have continued to rise. A $39.95 MSRP is hardly out of the question. You're right that some places will sell below that, mostly online store, but many people will be looking at the product in a brick and mortar store at the full price.

This is often posited. What evidence (rather than conjecture or anecdote) is there that folks really have difficulty finding the starting point?

I don't know. But anecdote and conjecture are good enough for the purposes of this discussion. I can say that a search on Amazon or Barnes & Noble for "Dungeons and Dragons" should have the entry product as the top result. Amazon does alright (the starter box is #1; PHB is #4), but B&N fails the test spectacularly. And neither of these searches make it clear that you actually need three books to play.

I just don't see this.

Within the traditional 3 books, the point of entry is one book, the PHB.
It is the clear starting point, with (using your assumption) a $40 entry point. It does not leave anyone intimidated by their bookshelf.

Four out of five players at the table only need a PHB. Sure, I'd prefer it if the price point were at $20-25 for the basic book, but that's the imagination engine for new players.

You're right, for a new player joining an existing group. But not for the new player looking to start a group.

My argument isn't that a game can't be a success with the three book model. This forum wouldn't exist if that were the case. But I do believe that the three book model has prevented some people from becoming D&D players, and that a single core product will make for a more successful entry point.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I thought they already said how it would work. The basic rules will be in a boxed set. The PHB will have advanced character options, the DMG will have advanced campaign options. I assume there will be some sort of MM as well.

 

[Umbran]

...but many people will be looking at the product in a brick and mortar store at the full price.

In this day and age, probably not. If you haven't heard, brick and mortar game stores are dying, and the big box stores generally sell at discount.

You're right, for a new player joining an existing group. But not for the new player looking to start a group.

I am not convinced that the lone new player looking to start a group is anything other than mythical, or as good as mythical, as far as marketing strategies are concerned.

I mean, just logically, it doesn't work. If you're really ignorant of the game, you don't even know it requires a group! You can't be looking to start a group when you don't know it takes a group!

Thus, if you're actively looking to start a group, you know something. Maybe not much, but something. So long as that something tells you that you need the PHB, you're in. Most likely, you've been given an outright introduction to the game by a friend, and then you have all the information you need. And, it isn't as if a young, curious geek today isn't going to go to Google and ask the internet to find out!

The "don't confuse the ignorant on the shelf" line only works for impulse or gift buying. You're right there - if Grandma's looking for a gift for Johnny's 12th birthday, she's going to get a little lost. Back in the late 70s and early 80s, when there wasn't an internet or a population of existing players, that sales channel may have been important. It isn't clear that now it is really relevant.