D&D 5E What Would You Put In a 5E Red Box?

[TrippyHippy]

That was not my claim, and not my post. You took someone else's post, and replaced their name with mine. I believe you meant to ask TrippyHippy that?

Yep, I think that was my quote. The evidence came from a video seminar of British game companies panel who spoke of the sales of their products being based on the time it took to sell 1000 units or some such. They also stated in that seminar that PDF sales are actually a fraction of the hardcopy sales, but are still worthwhile because the overheads are so low.

The other statistical reference was that the numbers of online contributions to gaming forums, subscriptions and the like is also a fraction of the hardcopy sales. That came from Wizards or Paizo, I think, but I've heard other company reps (White Wolf) say similar things too. Haven't got any links currently. I'm lazy and on holiday.

 

[Jester David]

That was not my claim, and not my post. You took someone else's post, and replaced their name with mine. I believe you meant to ask TrippyHippy that?

Sorry. My bad. Totally wasn't paying attention to names.

 

[Jester David]

I don't see a split between Basic and AD&D being highlighted much there. It's enumerated in a long list of issues, but I don't see it as being called out as a particular issue in itself. And, other reports I've seen do not highlight it as being a major issue either.

The quote in particular, "People self-segmented into groups playing Basic D&D, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, and within 2nd Edition into various Campaign Settings that had become their own game variants".

So yes, it's in his list, but I don't think he's making it out to be the major issue, and I've seen others talk about how people were starting with Basic and moving on to AD&D eventually, with Basic being a major recruiting tool.

The split would be covered in the "competing house systems" line.

According to something Steve Winter once said, Basic was planned as the introductory newbie line, but many new players wanted to play "the real game" so they went right to Advanced. While experienced players liked the rules lite flavour of Basic and chose to play that.

There's a reason one of the first things WotC did was end Basic and consolidate in a single game. There's a reason they haven't done two incompatible versions of the game in the last fifteen years.

 

[TrippyHippy]

It's similar. It's not AS bad but it's not good.

It comes down to creation cost. It takes manhours to write a book, develop a book, layout a book, and get art for a book. Before any profit is made those costs need to be paid for.

If you make three books that have a similar audience, some will buy them all and some will buy just one, but the cost to make the book is the same regardless. The fewer people that buy an individual product the less money for the company.
This gets worse if there are three products.

Well, flatly, if they don't have at least two products (print and PDF) then they'll just be missing out on sales regardless.

In terms of the overhead costs of box sets, there is a point, but the evidence from companies like Paizo, Wizards (to a degree; I'm referring to products like Gamma World rather than the recent 'starter set' - which was poor in my view) and Cubicle 7 shows that it can be done. Moreover, if it catches a few extra buyers who look at the box set as a game, then all the better.

With regards to the 'three books' tradition, I actually wish people would stop saying the 'Player's Handbook' is a complete entree point for casual players. It's not. You cannot play D&D with just a Player's Handbook alone. For me, personally, I'd be very reluctant to buy into another edition of the D&D game if I was forced to buy multiple books. Then again, I'd just want the PDF for me personally anyway. However, I'm trying to argue for the business prospects, not just my selfish needs! For me, the ideal formatting approach would be:

- A Core Game (Box set, Hardback and PDF copies) - "The D&D Game" - self contained, perceived as 'complete' in itself. With anything from 4-12 Classes, a solid 10 Levels of play, anything between 4 and 10 Races (!) to choose from. A decent bestiary, equipment and treasure catalogue, and at least one intro adventure, along with some basic DM's advice. Extra Dice sets could be sold along with the provision of a set in the Box set. I'd use the iconic Red Box cover for these products.There may be some debate about which Classes, Races or whatnot to include (4x4 or more?), but the point is it should be a complete core product to base expansions off.

- A series (I, II, III, etc) of hardback and PDF Monster Manual and Player's Handbook expansions on the core, for more monsters or Classes respectively. Maybe these could include some treasure catalogues too book because, honestly, I can't see the point of most of the material included in the Dungeon Master's Guide - although that might be a personal thing. On the other hand, if you want to have different Dungeon Master's Guides for specific styles of play - tactical miniature-based games, or 'narrative' storytelling games, this could be done here.

- Campaign Packs and Setting Books (Hardback and PDF). Box sets may be problematic here too, although they can be a lot of fun because of all the contents. Kickstarter them? Or even, make this aspect an open license for third party publishers.

- Computer Games, Board Games, Card Games and Miniature Games - All Based off the same "D&D" brand.

 

[Mistwell]

The split would be covered in the "competing house systems" line.

According to something Steve Winter once said, Basic was planned as the introductory newbie line, but many new players wanted to play "the real game" so they went right to Advanced. While experienced players liked the rules lite flavour of Basic and chose to play that.

There's a reason one of the first things WotC did was end Basic and consolidate in a single game. There's a reason they haven't done two incompatible versions of the game in the last fifteen years.

4e Basic boxed set was not compatible with 4e itself.

Regardless, we're all talking about a boxed set that is definitely compatible with the main game. 4 classes, 4 races, no subclasses, no feats, no backgrounds/skills. Those characters could all play just fine right alongside a character from the larger game, in the same adventure.

 

[Jester David]

Well, flatly, if they don't have at least two products (print and PDF) then they'll just be missing out on sales regardless.

In terms of the overhead costs of box sets, there is a point, but the evidence from companies like Paizo, Wizards (to a degree; I'm referring to products like Gamma World rather than the recent 'starter set' - which was poor in my view) and Cubicle 7 shows that it can be done. Moreover, if it catches a few extra buyers who look at the box set as a game, then all the better.

With regards to the 'three books' tradition, I actually wish people would stop saying the 'Player's Handbook' is a complete entree point for casual players. It's not. You cannot play D&D with just a Player's Handbook alone. For me, personally, I'd be very reluctant to buy into another edition of the D&D game if I was forced to buy multiple books. Then again, I'd just want the PDF for me personally anyway. However, I'm trying to argue for the business prospects, not just my selfish needs!

Quoting from:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315800-4-Hours-w-RSD-Escapist-Bonus-Column

The more segmented those brains became, the weaker the overall social network was. Every new game system, and every new variant to those systems, subdivided that network further, making it weaker. Between 1993 and 1999, the social network of the TRPG players had become seriously frayed. Even if you just looked at the network of Dungeons & Dragons players you could see this effect: People self-segmented into groups playing Basic D&D, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, and within 2nd Edition into various Campaign Settings that had become their own game variants. The effect on the market was that it became increasingly hard to make and sell something that had enough players in common that it would earn back its costs of development and production.

Our analysis lead us to the conclusion that in order to escape this trap, D&D at least had to try and unify its player community around one set of universally acceptable rules. And we had to cut back drastically on the number of different books we were publishing to focus spending on individual titles to drive up profitability. It was literally better to sell 7 copies of one book vs. 5 copies of two different books due to the economies of scale involved.

WotC might miss out on sales without two product lines, but unless both products are radically different and unlikely to pull sales from the other line at all, it's better to focus.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Quoting from:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315800-4-Hours-w-RSD-Escapist-Bonus-Column



WotC might miss out on sales without two product lines, but unless both products are radically different and unlikely to pull sales from the other line at all, it's better to focus.

Again, you are missing the point here. These were separate games with different rulesets and separate lines.

We are talking about multiple formats of the same game.

 

[Mistwell]

Quoting from:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315800-4-Hours-w-RSD-Escapist-Bonus-Column



WotC might miss out on sales without two product lines, but unless both products are radically different and unlikely to pull sales from the other line at all, it's better to focus.

You realize Pathfinder has an intro boxed set, right?

 

[Jester David]

You realize Pathfinder has an intro boxed set, right?

Yes. Which they created because they hadn't written their rulebook for brand new people, and it was a scary imposing brick that terrifies even the initiated.
If planning the Core Rulebook with both new and old players in mind, that mistake could be avoided.

Paizo also did everything possible to keep the costs on the Beginner Box low. They used recycled art. They used salaried employees rather than freelancers, so they wouldn't have to pay anyone more. And they took a smaller than normal percentage of the profits.
And they've avoided doing a second box. There's no BB2 and they've excluded the product from the PRD, not allowing 3PP to make follow up products. Because they do NOT want to create a second line of Pathfinder and want people to continue onto the Core Rulebook.

Again, having a simpler Core Rulebook would make that much easier and avoidable.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Yes. Which they created because they hadn't written their rulebook for brand new people, and it was a scary imposing brick that terrifies even the initiated.
If planning the Core Rulebook with both new and old players in mind, that mistake could be avoided.

Paizo also did everything possible to keep the costs on the Beginner Box low. They used recycled art. They used salaried employees rather than freelancers, so they wouldn't have to pay anyone more. And they took a smaller than normal percentage of the profits.
And they've avoided doing a second box. There's no BB2 and they've excluded the product from the PRD, not allowing 3PP to make follow up products. Because they do NOT want to create a second line of Pathfinder and want people to continue onto the Core Rulebook.

Again, having a simpler Core Rulebook would make that much easier and avoidable.

It is also something to note that Pathfinder Core isn't actually a complete game either. It still needs a Monster Manual and doesn't include any adventures. The Boxset, despite having less Classes and Races to choose from is actually more complete in being a playable game 'out of the box' and actually teaches new gamers how to play much better too.

Anyway, what is wrong with having recycled art and whatnot? Heck, I wouldn't care if the contents of the core rule Hardback and Box set were identical. If it increases the fan base, then great! The profits can be made elsewhere, beyond the entree point. Look at Mongoose's Legend books - their pdfs cost $1 each, because they just want to get people into the game with as few barriers as possible.