What's the big deal with point buy?

[Cedric]

First off, a monk with a 28 point buy is hardly ineffective, and nor is a Paladin. I don't buy the idea that either class must have very high stats in order to be useful. In fact, since the monk gets AC bonuses for both wisdom and dex, he can afford to put lower scores in both and still get the same effect. A 28 buy character won't have 18's, true, but, like Crothian, I don't see it as a huge problem for the monk to have a 14 str while the fighter has an 18.

Actually, the point buy allows some of these classes to shine. With a 25 point buy, only the ranger is going to have the two weapon fighting feats beyond the first one. The monk is likely the only one who will have improved trip since few fighters with that point buy will take the Int.

Since the points are equal overall, I don't have a problem. Monk is perhaps a poor choice, but, it's generally agreed that monks are a fairly weak class to begin with. Buffing them up with higher stats isn't going to make it a better class. At best, that's a patch. Besides, a monk with higher stats isn't suddenly better than a fighter with higher stats.

Really, wizard is a bit of a hard one, since it only needs one score. You could make a pretty effective wizzie with a 15 point buy.

I guess I just can't agree with requiring Point Buy for reasons of "balance." I think it allows some classes to shine, some classes are largely unaffected and a few classes are forced to mediocrity (with a low to average point buy, 28 or so).

But, obviously, you guys are free to play however you choose. And I'll be the first to step up and defend your right to do so.

 

[werk]

Out of curiosity, how do you reconcile this with the fact that I can make a MUCH more effective wizard or sorceror on 28 point buy, when compared to someone elses Monk or Paladin?

It's apples and oranges, not a fair comparison. Monks and paladins are more reliant on multiple good stats.

A better comparison is you making a sorcer with 28 point buy compared to a sorcerer you would make using a 32 point buy.

anything else is a bad analogy

 

[Cedric]

It's apples and oranges, not a fair comparison. Monks and paladins are more reliant on multiple good stats.

A better comparison is you making a sorcer with 28 point buy compared to a sorcerer you would make using a 32 point buy.

anything else is a bad analogy

I agree that if someone takes their monster stats and makes a one trick pony, they're going to be overall more well rounded and capable.

However, since we are talking about all characters being made with the same point buy, I think it is a fair analogy. Again, I'm not saying Point Buy is a 'bad' idea, I'm just saying that it only produces the semblance of balance, but not balance itself.

Ultimately, I believe balance in an RPG to be an illusion. You could give me a monk with a 15 pt. buy and my years of experience and quick wit will allow me to hold my own with a lot of people with MUCH better stats...but that's neither here nor there.

 

[werk]

I agree that if someone takes their monster stats and makes a one trick pony, they're going to be overall more well rounded and capable.

However, since we are talking about all characters being made with the same point buy, I think it is a fair analogy. Again, I'm not saying Point Buy is a 'bad' idea, I'm just saying that it only produces the semblance of balance, but not balance itself.

Ultimately, I believe balance in an RPG to be an illusion. You could give me a monk with a 15 pt. buy and my years of experience and quick wit will allow me to hold my own with a lot of people with MUCH better stats...but that's neither here nor there.

...and ever so modest.

Wouldn't it make sense for you to handicap yourself when playing with others that are not as experienced? The best way to do that is via a point buy, where you get fewer points and everyone else gets more. If you were to roll for stats, and you came out way ahead of the rest of the group, (like my 70-20 scenario, pro got 70, newb got 20) how would that be fair?

Not all things are created equal, you are right. But by allowing all players to start with the same 'stat wealth' then they all have all the opions that the others have...if using point buy you can tweak out some classes more than others...why do the other classes get played? Maybe it's not all about 'power'.

It's the difference between playing the hand you are dealt and choosing which hand you are dealt. It is completely fair if a player CHOOSES to penalize his character through less than optimal choices, it's not fair when one player gets more than the others for no reason other than luck.

And for the people that say stats don't matter, I completely disagree. Stats affect every roll that character makes. Yes, you can min/max and all that, but the fact remains, one has less than the other, so things are harder on him...for his entire character life.

 

[Cedric]

...and ever so modest.

Wouldn't it make sense for you to handicap yourself when playing with others that are not as experienced? The best way to do that is via a point buy, where you get fewer points and everyone else gets more. If you were to roll for stats, and you came out way ahead of the rest of the group, (like my 70-20 scenario, pro got 70, newb got 20) how would that be fair?

Not all things are created equal, you are right. But by allowing all players to start with the same 'stat wealth' then they all have all the opions that the others have...if using point buy you can tweak out some classes more than others...why do the other classes get played? Maybe it's not all about 'power'.

It's the difference between playing the hand you are dealt and choosing which hand you are dealt. It is completely fair if a player CHOOSES to penalize his character through less than optimal choices, it's not fair when one player gets more than the others for no reason other than luck.

And for the people that say stats don't matter, I completely disagree. Stats affect every roll that character makes. Yes, you can min/max and all that, but the fact remains, one has less than the other, so things are harder on him...for his entire character life.

You make some really good points, and I can't disagree with most of them. However, I think your points and mind can coexist and represent the strengths of both sides of this situation.

I play D&D largely for the random character creation. It's not so random that I'm limited in what background I can choose, however it has a random element that appeals to me when I want that.

If I wanted static character creation there are excellent games available from White Wolf, there's Hero 5th edition and others. Sometimes I play those games too, especially when I'm in the mood for static character creation.

Again, I have nothing against point buy for D&D. I just don't think it actually produces the "balance" that many people attribute to it.

As to handicapping myself when I am playing with a less experienced group, I do that all of the time. I stick to the shadows more, let them take the spotlight, and contribute in a manner that tries to nudge them along encouragingly. I don't need a certain set of stats, good or bad, to accomplish that.

 

[billd91]

However, since we are talking about all characters being made with the same point buy, I think it is a fair analogy. Again, I'm not saying Point Buy is a 'bad' idea, I'm just saying that it only produces the semblance of balance, but not balance itself.

I agree that it's a fair analogy. If stats are so important to balance, then there has to be some rationalization to square how some classes benefit from stat concentration compared to others that require more stat diffusion.
I'm not necessarilly saying that's an important justification for dice rolling the stats. But I do think it undermines the claim about stats being quite so important that point buy is the only fair method.

 

[Cedric]

...and ever so modest.

I'll happily list my weaknesses and limitations, but just as happily list my strengths. Overall, I think it's a valuable part of being a person of honesty and integrity.

 

[Victim]

I'll say. But if you give 36 pints during character generation, I bet you don't get many complaints!

Spycraft 2.0's 36 point buy also uses a completely different cost chart. 36 points isn't all that much since the costs of every stat above 12 went up; paying 22 points for an 18 stat instead of 16 points is a big difference.

I don't think DnD's static character generation system has any more faults than WW's or HERO's. None of the point buy systems are perfectly balanced, but I prefer them to the alternative.

 

[Lanefan]

Two things.

One, I've seen sevens and even three sixes in a point buy character. The Orc barbarian in my WLD game has them. Not too bright, not someone you'd bring home to mom, and definitely short sighted, but, built for the beating.

How? Most point-buy systems start at base 8...meaning your lowest stat still has to be at least 8. (some DM's allow you to voluntarily go lower, or even trade down for up, but not all)

Secondly, if you are playing a character beyond its abilities, how are you actually playing the character? Does your Wis 7 character frequently make very poor choices? She should be. But, then again, most people tend to ignore that end of the stats.

If you saw her played, you'd think different. She's smart, so she can figure things out fast enough...but she's impulsive as all hell, and her usual weapon of first resort once her spells run out is her Rod of Wonder, regardless who might be in the way. And, even though she's a pure Illusionist (Wizard), if someone interrupts her spellcasting (she *hates* that) she's been often known to start flailing away in melee with a weapon instead of simply backing up and trying the spell again...

We do awards each year for our various games combined; she's won "Most Entertaining Character" the last 2 years...for a reason!

Look, if I have 50 points over your character, then I am effectively two or three levels higher than you are. That might not bother you, but, I'll guarantee it bothers lots of people. When you look at all the complaining that this or that is broken the first culprit is almost always the point cost of the character.

If a character's broken it's usually because the DM has allowed some wacko race as a PC. More often what's broken are the feats, skills, and items it has...

Lanefan

 

[werk]

I'll happily list my weaknesses and limitations, but just as happily list my strengths. Overall, I think it's a valuable part of being a person of honesty and integrity.

Did you miss that on the first reply?

As to handicapping myself when I am playing with a less experienced group, I do that all of the time. I stick to the shadows more, let them take the spotlight, and contribute in a manner that tries to nudge them along encouragingly. I don't need a certain set of stats, good or bad, to accomplish that.

I do the same, but again, it's a lot different to elect to play that way vs. being forced to play that way.


I think what the topic is refining itself to, is, that point buy does not guarantee balanced or equal characters as a result, but it does give all players the same opportunity at the start...what they do with it is up to them.