What's the big deal with point buy?

[Doug McCrae]

I play D&D largely for the random character creation. It's not so random that I'm limited in what background I can choose, however it has a random element that appeals to me when I want that.

If I wanted static character creation there are excellent games available from White Wolf, there's Hero 5th edition and others. Sometimes I play those games too, especially when I'm in the mood for static character creation.

A player who likes randomness can have it within a point buy system - simply roll dice to determine how you spend your attribute points, race, character class, feats, etc. That's the beauty of point buy systems, they still allow for randomness if you want it. Because the power is in the hands of the players they can give up that power to the dice if they so wish. But the reverse isn't true. Once the dice have the power, a player can't take it away.

 

[Doug McCrae]

To those that point out that there can still be imbalance with point buy as an argument against it: This is not a good argument. The question is not whether point buy leads to a perfectly balanced game, of course it doesn't, but whether it leads to a more balanced game than random rolls, which of course it does.

 

[Hussar]

I don't think DnD's static character generation system has any more faults than WW's or HERO's. None of the point buy systems are perfectly balanced, but I prefer them to the alternative.

QFT.

Yes, the point buy system may favour classes that don't suffer MAD. Then again, die rolling does as well. If I roll 5 10's and one 18, I can make a sorc or a wizzie perfectly well. I could make a monk or a paly, but, it would be a pretty bloody weak one.

Stat generation can't really fix the problems of MAD, whether you use rolling or point buy. That's a problem with the class, not with chargen.

 

[Cedric]

A player who likes randomness can have it within a point buy system - simply roll dice to determine how you spend your attribute points, race, character class, feats, etc. That's the beauty of point buy systems, they still allow for randomness if you want it. Because the power is in the hands of the players they can give up that power to the dice if they so wish. But the reverse isn't true. Once the dice have the power, a player can't take it away.

If we were discussing a new game, with which I had no history, I might very well agree with you completely. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that the current iterations of D&D are slightly more conducisive to a point buy system.

However, the game doesn't exist in a vaccuum, it comes with history, about three decades of it. I don't play "a" game for the randomness in character creation, I play D&D for the randomness of character creation.

There are other games I've mentioned that I play when I want to use a point buy system, Hero being my favorite among those (but GURPS and White Wolf both have good systems too).

When I want randomness along with combat complexity and flavor, I play Rolemaster (the original, not that standard issue they came out with).

If you want to say that I'm just too stuck in my ways to adapt to a better system, I won't agree with you, but I definitely won't argue with you either.

And just to restate this, I don't disagree with the use of Point Buy and I don't proclaim that rolling stats is somehow "better."

I'm only saying that balance is an illusion (imo) and you would do better to just play the game the way you want to play it and not invest your time into trying to balance it.

Cedric

 

[Crothian]

Stat generation can't really fix the problems of MAD, whether you use rolling or point buy. That's a problem with the class, not with chargen.

That's only true if one limits oneself to just those two methods of stat generation.

 

[Hussar]

That's only true if one limits oneself to just those two methods of stat generation.

What other methods are there? Either you use point buy in some form or you are rolling stats (by various methods). I suppose the article in Dragon a month or so ago could be used where you use 3 Dragon Ante readings to create characters.

In any case, either the chargen is mostly random or chosen. What is the third option?

 

[Nyaricus]

If you really wish to blow their minds, mention rolling ability scores in order. After their jaws have dropped, concede that „okay, okay, you can roll two series”.

Actually, my entire group did Organic Method for our new campaign (4d6, in order, re-roll any one and switch and two) and it was fine.

So long as the entire group can agree with the method of character stat creation, then fine. This, of course, means DM and players.

Personally, I have a little list of optional Sat Rolling methods (see my Tasty Bits thread for a link to it) and they, as a group, choose one and let'r rip. Honestly, so long as everyone is okay, what's the big deal?

Personally, if I were ever one to do a point-buy, I'd do it 1-1, with a 75 base point buy, going up or down depending on campaign flavour. IE 60 for low-powered campaigns, and 90 for high-powered ones. YMMV, JMHO

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

In any case, either the chargen is mostly random or chosen. What is the third option?

I think he's referring to the fact that some aspects of certain 'random' systems are less punishing. I've seen people here post that they use '4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll 1s and arrange to suit'. If that can't get you good enough stats to suit the most MAD-mad class, you need new dice.

I find most MAD arguements in 3.5 to be unconvincing (although, to be fair, I banned monks so long ago that I've not had to DM one in 3.x). Most classes can at least use their class abilities with a 12 in the primary stat. Paladins are a little rough, but do-able. The only thing that really can suck is the primary stat for spellcasters, and even then I've never actually seen a caster that couldn't cast their highest level spells because of a low INT or what have you.

 

[Crothian]

What other methods are there?

Let them pick their own stats. If they feel a class is MAD they can pick the stats the class needs.

 

[jcfiala]

Let them pick their own stats. If they feel a class is MAD they can pick the stats the class needs.

Heh.

"Pick whatever stats you want or need. 3-18. Your choice. But total up how many points it would cost to make that character with point buy, subtract 32, and that's your Hubris score. Write that on your sheet so I can see it."

"Hubris? What's it for? Oh, you'll find out."