What's the big deal with point buy?

[Cedric]

This is the same player who, with rolling 4d6 and dropping lowest but with no rules in place for having to take any one set of numbers, will fill up a paper front and back with sets of stats. I mean really whats the point? You might as well just pick the numbers you want.

rv

I do agree with you here. If my players want a "reroll" button, they need to go back to their computers. You roll for stats once, unless I say otherwise.

Now, I've been pretty forgiving in the past. If someone has had a CLEAR character concept, I've adjusted their stats after they've rolled so they could feasibly play it...or I've allowed rerolls, etc.

But no, no filling up stacks of paper with 4d6 six times until you get the 18, 18, 17, 15, 14, 12 you were hoping to get.

 

[Asmor]

17, 17, 15, 14, 14, 13, 12

Wow! So might you need seven stats! I'm impressed!

I've only skimmed the thread, but I'm surprised that I haven't noticed anyone saying they let their players choose.

I'd be happy to let my players use whatever method they like. In fact, they always roll, which I find kind of annoying because I prefer point buy. But it really doesn't matter to me. Oh, and I also don't supervise their rolls. I trust them, or at the very least, like to think I can trust them. Sometimes it's like you're a paladin in a party with an evil person, and you just gotta make sure not to use detect evil on him for the sake of party cohesion.

 

[Gargoyle]

Seriously. What is the big deal?

I use point buy now (25 points), but I don't think it is a big deal. Rolling is fun too, in a different way. In the past I've made up my mind about all sorts of character backgrounds, personalities, classes, and feats just from looking at what I rolled. It's interesting.

Some of those complaints about rolling are just whining, but some are valid concerns, IMO.

Overall, I think point buy works better, if you don't give them too many points. My problem with rolling is that I don't want one player to have a big advantage at low levels over the others, and rolling seems to do that sometimes.

Another reason for using it is that it makes character generation away from the gaming table more fair. I am convinced that my players do not cheat, but sometimes they are not so certain about each other, and requiring them to use point buy prevents any suspicions from arising in the first place. The game is about rolling dice, but for my campaign we don't roll them away from the table. As some would say, locks keep honest people honest. Having them roll in front of the DM slows down character generation, and isn't always possible.

Finally, I do think of player characters as special, and would prefer that they be exceptional. Players only get one character to control; it should be one that they like.

 

[diaglo]

I've only skimmed the thread, but I'm surprised that I haven't noticed anyone saying they let their players choose.

i think that is Crothian's normal stance

 

[Cedric]

3.0 and 3.5 make no such advances. I've read through plenty of books and I don't recall seeing a paragraph on planning your character out to even the next level. Sure, they do suggest that you have a concept in mind and you make wise choices to allow the future to have possibilities. But that just makes sense.

With the onslaught of available choices in terms of Feats, Prestige Classes, Class Abilities, etc...it is very rare these days that I see a 3.x character grow organically based on what has occurred in game. More often than not the character's entire progression is rigidly planned before hand so the player can make sure they qualify for XX Presige Class or YY Feat Chain by # level.

Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with this...I tend to fall for it myself ot a certain degree. But somewhere in the back of my mind, I don't care for it.

There should be room for a chararcter to grow organically based on what's actually happened in game.

Of course, in large part due to this, I limit my players to one 10 level prestige class and one 5 level prestige class.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I understand, if I wanted character creation via a static point based system, I'd play Hero 5th Edition (arguably the world's most flexible game system).

Don't forget GURPS!

Or Mutants & Masterminds!

Or BESM/TristatX!

Lots of good options out there.

But I take the breaks that my game group prefers. (Of course I try to take as much randomness out as possible for no rolling for hit points either. If hit dice are an indicator of how tough a character class is, randomly rolling those hit points seems to work directly against that theory.)

 

[arscott]

I dunno, though.

I play with people who will plan their characters up though 15th or 20th level. But then they'll play three sessions and totally revise their plan.

Sort of reminds me of real life, where people make complicated plans for education, careers, relationships, and so on, and then may or may not change them based on what's happening in their lives. I certainly wouldn't call that inorganic.

 

[pawsplay]

In the Dark Sun game I plan to start next year, players will roll their stats, but without the safety-net reroll. The world of athas is harsh, and there's little room for concepts like fairness or forgiveness, so a random roll with no room for mistakes is highly appropriate.

If the world of Dark Sun is so harsh and unforgiving, how would a character with low stats survive as an adventurer? Historically, tougher settings like Dark Sun and Oriental Adventures have suggested the favorable ability score generation methods.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

With the onslaught of available choices in terms of Feats, Prestige Classes, Class Abilities, etc...it is very rare these days that I see a 3.x character grow organically based on what has occurred in game.

<snip>

There should be room for a chararcter to grow organically based on what's actually happened in game.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. My assertion is that it isn't the tool's fault, so don't blame the tool.

I'm sure that you've heard the expression "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Like it or hate it, it is true. A gun is not going to stand up and demand that it be used to kill someone. A person picks up the gun and uses it for their own purpose.

So, I would assert that "3.x doesn't plan characters out to 20th level, people do." Sure, the tool (3.x) makes it easy to do this. But the book never stands up and demands to be used in this manner. The people do that.

My point above is that teaching people to roleplay is an art. Teaching people to design organic characters is an art. In a word where greed and immediate gratification are two of the largest motivators for life ... if we want people to do something different they need to be taught how and shown why it is a better system. It isn't about trashing the system and limiting choices. It is about teaching people how to play with an organic mind. It is about teaching people to resist the lure of the Dark Side and roleplay rather than rollplay and plan out to the 20th level.

From a DM's perspective, I dislike people who honestly plan out to the 20th level - with no chance of deviation. I don't mind people looking ahead and saying that they've got a few options and avenues they'd like to go down. But when a player says "this character is going to be a W/X with levels Y/Z" then I wonder why I should even game before that point? If they already know what's going to happen, why play through it? In that case it isn't about interacting with the world and being changed by it while you change it as well. That kind of gaming is about the numbers.

I agree with you in principle. I disagree that it is the systems fault. The system is a tool and cannot help how people use/abuse it. Focus on changing how people approach the game and you'll be much happier than limiting choices. Teaching people how to approach the game organically allows them to limit their choices naturally without having to be the power-weilding DM.

 

[Tiberius]

Wow! So might you need seven stats! I'm impressed!

Pfft! Any true AD&D player knows that Wizards made a ginormous mistake in abandoning Comliness as a core stat.