What's the big stink about Rappan Athuk Reloaded?

[Shemeska]

If you don't, the answer is the obvious "so don't buy it". Truth to tell, I am fed up with cheerleaders who try to pimp their favourite products to everybody under the sun. That goes for you, Nightfall, especially. It is blatantly clear that Shemeska would be disappointed by the module if she bought it, and yet you go on trying to sell it to her. Why? You aren't doing her, and yourself, or Necromancer, a service.

From what has been said, that seems to be the case. Given the difference in style between it and me, which is pretty darn dramatic, I'd probably have my fingers ignite if I touched it.

But to be clear, all hyperbole aside, I asked for a better explanation of why people who liked it did so, not necessarily for my own benefit, but just because I'd had words with Nightfall. Even if by that point it was rather obvious I wasn't the intended target audience for the product, I felt it only polite to ask for an explanation of the module above and beyond the largely blind cheerleading in the thread up to that point for the benefit of others for whom RAR might be up their alley.

For the more in depth explanation, Melan, bowbe, it's appreciated.

 

[bowbe]

No problem Shem, your welcome.

As you can see the concepts of what people think RA:R is is definitly as diverse as what people think "old-school" or 1ed Feel is. I have no problem explaining my perspective, because even though you may not like it, the dissapearance of all copies from the warehouse assumes that 900-1000ish people really dig it. Assuming half never played it before or never finished (and thats a big assumption) that means 500 or so adventuring groups will someday test their mettle against the forces of Orcus. Potentially 2000 new heroes or corpses, depending on how the adventure is run. If they have fun thats potentially 2000 new fans!

Could be some of those players are already fans. An even better chance that those 2000 people are so called "wotc" purists who never pick up or try anything outside of official releases. (I used to be a TSR purist... then i discovered the Mayfair lich lords module and some used Judges Guild stuff so I know a little bit of what i speak).

The point is, If those people have a good time it may just open their eyes to other alternatives produced by the dozens of d20 imprints that abound. Wishful thinking perhaps, but as a well designed and developed cross-over product RA:R and its predecessors have already done a fair share of stirring interest in the d20 industry and the hobby as a whole. Of course no D20 company gets anywhere near the interest or sales that WOTC gets for its "official releases." It's hubris to imagine that anyone does. Average joe gamer may never have heard of RA or the RA:R box or Necromancer Games but WOTC has! They have worked very closely with us from the very beginning! The initial RA releases gave a lot of others who were interested in starting their own D20 line the confidence to say "Hey we can do this!"

And more than a few have, which is really really awesome!

Also, I would like to add that there is more then a little bit of inside joke about the ecology btw. RA actually does have a pretty sensible ecology. Rats feed on the bugs and waste. Bigger critters feed on the rats, priests create food and water and so on and so on. As for the jug of alchemy well... some things are intended to be tongue in cheek. Nothing wrong with a sense of humor. Like the wights in white satin.

Anyhow, I added my two bits for the sake of those who have never heard of RA:R and not out of any real need or desire to get people all flamed up!

Case

 

[WereSteve]

All Nerd Fu aside.

Seriously?

Ever walked along in a dungeon and just picked up a skull or found a body and cast "Speak With Dead" only to have the DM go... er.. uh WTF are you doing that for and have to scramble to come up with some lame stuff off the top of their head because they didn't expect anyone to do that?

A lack of preparation on a DM's part only proves a case of p*** poor planning ... if you're going to run something be prepared and have a good imagination just in case something needs to be done on the fly.

Highly detailed treasure. You know I am very good friends with Bill Webb. Like the guy quite a bit, like a brother even. Hell, the guy thanked my wife and daughter in the credits! Thats class! I'm not one for jealousy but to be quite honest I wish I could write treasure as cleverly as this guy does. He'll tell you what kind of veneer is on a chest, and the approximate GP value of various silks, satins and give an explanation of how long it would take to loot a pillar, sarcophagi, thrones, statues and just about everything else you might find! For people who dig detail of that nature RA is a game master's gold mine. (Pun probably intended).

This is a pretty good example of why I feel Necro has lost the 1st ed feel ... it is no longer required of a good DM to have a sense of imagination to take a minimally to moderately described setting and flesh it out to fit their particluar group or campaign world. We now have splat books galore and everything is so completely detailed out that there is no real room for individual interpretation any more.

I have the the initial releases of Rappan Athuk which suits me just fine ... and provided a little tweaking to fit within WoHF ... things will work out just fine. Hope those who got the box set enjoy it, but it is not for me.

 

[Barak]

Shem,

I was only trying to be offensive to one guy. I apologize Shem if it offended your Lothian sensibilities. Besides I'm not disrespecting your love of Planscape, just the fact people automatically consider WotC = awesome. Planscape= awesome fine. Just the other stuff...


Grump,

Thanks man.

That guy was me, right? Right! Wee.

Let's try this one more time. From the time of my very first post, I've made it very clear that I did not in any way, shape, or form argue the point that RA is awesome. I've heard enough good about it, and little enough bad (if any, can't really recall) that I'm pretty darn sure it is. I wouldn't even argue that it is -the- most awesome module/dungeon. It very well may be.

That said, it is neither the most famous, nor the most feared. Now, you can go on and on about how WotC sucks eggs 'till you are blue in the face, whatever. I never said different. Heck, I never even mentioned WotC. I guess I might as well have, since the most famous module/dungeon is bound to be a WotC/TSR one. Doesn't make it awesome, doesn't make it better, just makes it more.. Famous.

As for feared.. For my money, being the most feared is not even something to aim for. I'd hazard to say Tomb of Horrors might be the most feared, or at least more feared than RA. I hate Tomb of Horrors. It's, for my money, a dumb module where characters die a lot due to dumb bad luck, more than anything they can really be blamed for. More Feared doesn't equal better, not at all.

That said, feel free to call me a dumb WotC fanboy if you wish (you'd be wrong, but that doesn't really matter).

 

[Orcus]

Hi everyone!

I love the passion, keep it up!

Danny, if you havent heard of RA you gotta check it out. You will love it.

Barak and Co you bring up some good points. "most famous" caused you problems and i get that. from pure sales numbers, has undermountain sold more, sure. but i was talking about "famous" as far as reputation in the industry. Erik Mona knows it. Monte knows it. Heck, Mike Mearls even chimed in earlier in this thread. This dungeon has a reputation. And it is probably the best example of a hard core first edition dungeon that has ever been produced. So I stand by that statement. But if you mean famous by "greatest number of purchasers familiar with it," then no, it isnt the most famous. but that isnt what i am saying. i am talking reputation in the industry. And RA more than delivers on that claim.

As for Tomb of Horrors and GH Dungeon, I have a specific take on those. Tomb is the greatest module ever produced, but I dont really think of that as a "dungeon." It is a very specific and rather short tomb. It isnt a dungeon crawl, it is a death trap. So I dont actually consider ToH as in the same group. Ane believe me, I love ToH. I was one of the "Industry Experts" that was involved in ranking the greatest modules of all time for Dungeon Magazine (based, in all honesty, in large part on the fact that we did Rappan Athuk), I picked ToA as #1 and in fact it was selected as #1. Nothing, in my mind, beats TOH.

As for the GH dungeon, I agree that that dungeon, in theory, is the most famous. It is the first. BUT I am talking about published products. In my view, that dungeon has yet to be published. Sure, TSR did a joke module that Gary disavowed. And years later did the three towers of castle greyhawk. But I dont think either of those were actually Gary's Castle GH dungeon. The day Gary ever actually publishes it in its real original form, I will happily hand over the "most famous" crown to that. No doubt about it. And I dont mean the Yggsburgh thing he is doing with TLG. I mean the real actual first dungeon. That is more famous.

But I didnt say just famous, I said "famous and feared." That is why Undermountain is out. Sure it might be famous for its size and scope, like WLD, but it doesnt inspire the sheer terror that RA does. I've never heard a player say "no freaking way, we arent going in THERE!" or "Oh s----, not again, I dont want to go back in there!" They say that about RA, which is why it is the most famous and feared.

That's just my take. Your mileage may vary. It is not overblown hype, I fully believe it and stand by it. If you get it, I hope you love it. But I dont want a great product to cause division.

I will say this, though. Even if you love "roleplaying" over dungeon crawling, that doesnt mean you should avoid RA. Think about it this way: a dungeon is an epic setting with great challenges. Great roleplaying needs that. We dont play "advertisements and accountants" we play "dungeons and dragons." You dont rescue Suzie from the mean paperboy at the corner store. You retrieve the staff of death from the tower of doom guarded by Dragotha. YOu need a setting like RA. Or, think of it in movie terms. How about the movie Star Wars. Luke and Co didnt rescue Leia from Godo the silly Ewok, they went to the freaking Death Star and rescued her from Darth Vader, the evil cleric dressed in all black plate. Think of RA as the Death Star. The story you decide to tell in the death star is your decision. If Necro were to do the death star dungeon, we would provide maps of all levels and a list of all monsters and their motivations, just like RA. we'd list vader (the evil high priest), we would note that there was a room that contained a captured princess. Now if you, using that product, just decide to send your PCs to the death star to kick in doors one by one, that is your choice. That is not the death star's fault. But if you send your PCs to break into the death star to rescue the princess and escape the clutches of the evil high priest, that is also your choice and can be full of great roleplaying. The product is there for you to use. And the fact that you dont want to dungeon crawl doesnt mean you cant use it. In fact, because of its epic nature, it is great for roleplaying. If you decide to use RA just as a mindless door kick in treasure hunt, that is your choice. But that isnt RA's fault. You could just as easily use it as a very focused quest location with very specific story elements. Back to the death star example, if you bought the "death star dungeon" the fact that you dont play out the great adventure that is star wars is not the dungeon's fault. that is a DM choice. Lots of lazy DMs just do door kicking and treasure looting. Now that has its fun and appeal (by the way, I am not sayiing dungeon crawling is from lazy DMs, i love dungeon crawling and so do my players, i mean it is lazy to think that the only use for a dungeon is dungeon crawling, because it isnt; so no hate email from dungeon crawling DMs please ). But there is no reason you couldnt, instead, use it for epic heroic and deep roleplaying.

Just a few thoughts

Clark

 

[Barak]

Ahhh! Now -that-, my friend, is a response. You explain the reasoning behind your claim, you qualify it, you clarify it.

That is (in my opinion) the way to discourse on the internet. A claim is made that I disagree with, I call foul, and you explain why what you said is (in your opinion), correct. That makes me more curious to pick up (probably not in the reloaded form, at this point ) RA.

Thank you, Orcus, for your response. I really appreciate it.

 

[Ottergame]

It's a shame I'll never get to see this product, then. I missed out on the preorders of the boxed set, and I won't be paying 3 times markup on eBay the day after the product is released.

And no, there's no freaking way I'll buy the PDFs. PDF isn't even a last ditch subsitute for me. It's either print or I never touch it.

 

[Treebore]

Ordering the copies still available from Alliance via your LGS isn't an option?

 

[bowbe]

Otter. To reiterate RA:Reloaded is only sold out from the White Wolf warehouse it is not "Sold out" as in no copies to be had until the distributors are done with it.

LGS's and some online outlets as have been mentioned in this thread and the other (referring to the sell out) have access to rougly 500 copies. Your local store may be able to order it, or an online outlet which uses Alliance will have copies available, likely for a few months! If you want one, make sure to hit up your local vendor or bookstore that stocks WW and SSS products and put your order in and you shouldn't have a problem getting one!

We sometimes get a bit hyped when distributors purchase every copy of something we have in stock. That is typically a very good sign! Thats a "sellout at the warehouse" being WW's warehouse, not a "sellout at the distributors warehouse!" Though we definitely hope for that too!


Peace

Case

 

[Treebore]

What should I do with the ogres and stuff? Talk to them? Invite them to a pleasant afternoon of tea and biscuits?


It states right up it is not an ecology experiment. In the text. I also see that as a good thing... really, why should dungeons have functional ecologies? What's wrong with improbability, surrealism and plainly fantastic stuff that doesn't make sense from a conventional viewpoint? IMHO dungeons per definitionem "don't make sense". I see no need to "explain" the rationales for why monsters and traps are there. They are there because the players will find them entertaining. Of course, I wouldn't put live goblins in an abandoned pyramid otherwise inhabited by undead, but that's still only thematic appropriateness and not a real ecology.

What do the monsters eat? Probably adventurers. What are 22 trolls doing with a jug of alchemy? We don't know either.

Recognise this bit? I hope you do.

I do. Your not supposed to have a social convention with every monster, but there are several very cool and evil NPC's that the party could get help from, if they approach the encounters in a way that allows for discourse. If they went in there hacking and slashing then that is all the Dungeons of Graves is, a Hack fest.


I don't know. Maybe it is because I always go "outside the box" as much as I can. Just last night my players were in dungeon lair. They were shocked to find this rather attractive human female sorceroress was hanging out there and calling this "gnoll" her ex-husband. They later found out he used to be a human before he died and was reincarnated as a gnoll.

I do similiar stuff when I ran RA, Tomb of Abysthor, and every module I run. Part of making it "my own". So when I looked at RA my imagination just went wild. I loved the ideas I came up with. Most of them got killed before getting used, but the ones that came into play made everything a lot more fun and unique.

So my opinion of RA is being very dynamic, but I guess it is more because I made it that way than how it is presented. A great Game Master named Gary Gygax once wrote that it is up to the DM to make an adventure become alive and dynamic, so that is what I strive to do and the pay off has always been worth it.