What's the big stink about Rappan Athuk Reloaded?
- Thread starter Herobizkit
- Start date
Treebore
First Post
Vocenoctum said:The arguement was that people liked current products because it's WotC. That doesn't really hold to TSR back in the early days though. If you want to say "people like Tomb of Horrors because there was nothing else to compare it to" or "Temple of Elemental Evil is only good because of nostalgia", that's different than someone pointing out that there are typo's in Fields of Ruin.
It may be long lasting, but since the world will end in 2011, we'll never know!
Righteo. That was my point really, opinions vary about quality, but fame seems a bit different.
It'd be neat if the old PDF of RA1 was available for free for a limited time, so folks could sort of "preview" RAR. I guess with the print run of 1000 though, it isn't needed.
It was free for about 5 weeks on drivethrurpg a year or two ago!! Maybe that was 3 years ago! That is a good idea though. Maybe if it had been thought of about 5 months ago.
bowbe
First Post
Alrighty
Lots of snarking and sniping hahaha!
All Nerd Fu aside.
What is this feel that we talk about in reference to Rappan Athuk? Why do those that really love this dungeon think so highly of it?
How about this:
Ever walked along in a dungeon and just picked up a skull or found a body and cast "Speak With Dead" only to have the DM go... er.. uh WTF are you doing that for and have to scramble to come up with some lame stuff off the top of their head because they didn't expect anyone to do that?
Rappan Athuk probably has such a skull or body that could spill all kinds of story. Written right into the product! So for folks who hear all the "meat grinder" talk and the "impregnable" talk from some fans I throw that out there to make a point that everything is NOT as you would expect.
Highly detailed treasure. You know I am very good friends with Bill Webb. Like the guy quite a bit, like a brother even. Hell, the guy thanked my wife and daughter in the credits! Thats class! I'm not one for jealousy but to be quite honest I wish I could write treasure as cleverly as this guy does. He'll tell you what kind of veneer is on a chest, and the approximate GP value of various silks, satins and give an explanation of how long it would take to loot a pillar, sarcophagi, thrones, statues and just about everything else you might find! For people who dig detail of that nature RA is a game master's gold mine. (Pun probably intended).
RA:R CAN be run as a total hackfest... if all the PCs want to die hideously thats exactly what happens. It ALSO features its own rich history.
Here is a brief summary:
An army of Orcus many many many years ago was on the run from an army of good after a massive battle. They moved past a haunted graveyard in their escape and plunged into some deep dark caverns that their generals/wizards/priests ect had knowledge of. The forces of good, not content with the retreat saw a possibility to wipe out the worship of Orcus and his minions once and for all and pursued into the caves... NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN!
So whats on the inside after years of being cooped up in the dark caverns? A series of temples to Orcus, each helping build his unholy power in your PCs home plane. The spirits and walking corpses of the brave heroes and soldiers who strove against his armies... now turned to evil and pressed into the eternal service of Orcus through torture, sacrifice and worse. Yes worse.
Likewise there are mysteries inside these caverns that pre-date the arrival of the armies of Orcus. Mysteries obscured or feared even by his minions. Others used these caves long before their arrival. Thus parts of the dungeon are sealed... unless perhaps some intrepid adventurers can find the keys or solve the puzzles to unlock them and find their way to hidden treasures too marvelous to describe. Possibly relics. Possibly the remnants and folly of priestesses who have betrayed their high goddess.
These cool things aside, the upper levels also swarm with the remnants of previous adventurering parties. Those who came before you and attempted to pilfer the secrets which the darkness keeps. Gates to other planes of existance (and not all of them deadly or evil I might add) are found here. Portals to other cities and other worlds are there as well.
So it isn't "Just" a dungeon crawl. It has its stories, and it likes to hang its secrets out there. Ambiguously, mythically perhaps, but tantalizing for the brave none the less. The stories branch out in various directions, suggest hidden knowledge that may be found in other products in our line. Not in ways that require you to own those products too mind you, but just left there as hints or easter eggs for folks who have been with us from the very beginning.
The monsters have personality, from lowly goblins and naughty ogres to tricky trolls to others which could be friend or foe depending on the characters actions. Many of these have left their marks upon its walls or scratched bits of their stories into the floors with bloodied broken fingernails.
So yes, it is a big badA$$ dungeon crawl, without any doubt. It is also something a whole lot more than that.
When the question and inevitable distaste for "1st edition feel" is applied, many unknowingly or wrongly assume this means death death and more death at the hands of DMs who obviously revel in slaughtering PCs. They then go into a good long tirade about how they hated E.G.G. adventures and sign off with a sig that happens to use a quote attributed to a character he originally created! HAHAHA!
Anyhow, maybe this is the case in some instances. In the instances of first edition feel that I am familiar with, it meant using your spells, abilities, and smarts in ways that one would find uncommon when compared to classic video puzzle games like Myst or gore fests like Doom, Quake and their ilk.
Oddly enough I always hear lots of "talk" about "Quality Role Play" but "See" less and less of it as time goes by and more and more Doom/Quake.
In my own personal "1st edition feel" days, RP and problem solving were the centerpiece because you had a lot more time in between levels to develop and explore your character. That is a conversation for neither here nor now but it bears some merit when referring to some of that "1st edition feel" that is quintisentially RA. If you go in expecting to "clear a level" all the PCs will die...(and possibly not have fun) OR suddenly get A WHOLE LOT BETTER at their Role Playing and problem solving!
I remember a 1st edition feel where PCs used stone to flesh on walls filled with veins of rare ore...sustaining themselves on eating the flesh and enriching their pouches with the raw metals... or feeding the rubbery gristle to monsters in exchange for safe passage.
I also remember a 1st edition feel where characters and their foes used spells like "dig" and rock to mud to dissolve problems that adamantine weapons and strength scores of 30 couldn't solve. I recall tunneling, flying and swimming not merely as combat tactics to "OWN" on another player or Vis a Vi the GM vs. the Players... but as means to solve terrain or conditional problem and score loot!
I remember having to actually USE spells like water breathing and resistance to cold to explore the depths of unknown lakes and streams... and finding things there. All the while I sat wondering what kind of crazy adventure writing monkey would hide such wealth in such strange places! Bill and Clark are those monkeys... or more appropriately that psycho frog and the big goat-boy. RA:R is all about those types of 1ed. More-so I think than that "other kind" people are always on and on about.
In those days the "backstory" was more sublimely folded into the text instead of being thrown right in your face along with a flow chart and graphic web to explain the plot. One could theoretically do this with all the varied NPCs for Rappan Athuk if they were so inclined and add say... another 300 pages to the already voluminous product! They could include flow charts of who is friendly with whom in the dungeon and what the various factions are, how they relate to one another and what their minion rank in the Army of Orcus is for added fluff. Or they can find it there in the text as presented and ultimately via 1ed style make it their own!
Anyhow, if you haven't heard of it, bummer. If you've heard of it but only heard of the kill ratio and not had the intestinal fortitude to delve its mysteries yourself thats really sad. I for one hope you find yourself exploring its halls someday, if nothing else it will be quite memorable.
Case
Lots of snarking and sniping hahaha!
All Nerd Fu aside.
What is this feel that we talk about in reference to Rappan Athuk? Why do those that really love this dungeon think so highly of it?
How about this:
Ever walked along in a dungeon and just picked up a skull or found a body and cast "Speak With Dead" only to have the DM go... er.. uh WTF are you doing that for and have to scramble to come up with some lame stuff off the top of their head because they didn't expect anyone to do that?
Rappan Athuk probably has such a skull or body that could spill all kinds of story. Written right into the product! So for folks who hear all the "meat grinder" talk and the "impregnable" talk from some fans I throw that out there to make a point that everything is NOT as you would expect.
Highly detailed treasure. You know I am very good friends with Bill Webb. Like the guy quite a bit, like a brother even. Hell, the guy thanked my wife and daughter in the credits! Thats class! I'm not one for jealousy but to be quite honest I wish I could write treasure as cleverly as this guy does. He'll tell you what kind of veneer is on a chest, and the approximate GP value of various silks, satins and give an explanation of how long it would take to loot a pillar, sarcophagi, thrones, statues and just about everything else you might find! For people who dig detail of that nature RA is a game master's gold mine. (Pun probably intended).
RA:R CAN be run as a total hackfest... if all the PCs want to die hideously thats exactly what happens. It ALSO features its own rich history.
Here is a brief summary:
An army of Orcus many many many years ago was on the run from an army of good after a massive battle. They moved past a haunted graveyard in their escape and plunged into some deep dark caverns that their generals/wizards/priests ect had knowledge of. The forces of good, not content with the retreat saw a possibility to wipe out the worship of Orcus and his minions once and for all and pursued into the caves... NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN!
So whats on the inside after years of being cooped up in the dark caverns? A series of temples to Orcus, each helping build his unholy power in your PCs home plane. The spirits and walking corpses of the brave heroes and soldiers who strove against his armies... now turned to evil and pressed into the eternal service of Orcus through torture, sacrifice and worse. Yes worse.
Likewise there are mysteries inside these caverns that pre-date the arrival of the armies of Orcus. Mysteries obscured or feared even by his minions. Others used these caves long before their arrival. Thus parts of the dungeon are sealed... unless perhaps some intrepid adventurers can find the keys or solve the puzzles to unlock them and find their way to hidden treasures too marvelous to describe. Possibly relics. Possibly the remnants and folly of priestesses who have betrayed their high goddess.
These cool things aside, the upper levels also swarm with the remnants of previous adventurering parties. Those who came before you and attempted to pilfer the secrets which the darkness keeps. Gates to other planes of existance (and not all of them deadly or evil I might add) are found here. Portals to other cities and other worlds are there as well.
So it isn't "Just" a dungeon crawl. It has its stories, and it likes to hang its secrets out there. Ambiguously, mythically perhaps, but tantalizing for the brave none the less. The stories branch out in various directions, suggest hidden knowledge that may be found in other products in our line. Not in ways that require you to own those products too mind you, but just left there as hints or easter eggs for folks who have been with us from the very beginning.
The monsters have personality, from lowly goblins and naughty ogres to tricky trolls to others which could be friend or foe depending on the characters actions. Many of these have left their marks upon its walls or scratched bits of their stories into the floors with bloodied broken fingernails.
So yes, it is a big badA$$ dungeon crawl, without any doubt. It is also something a whole lot more than that.
When the question and inevitable distaste for "1st edition feel" is applied, many unknowingly or wrongly assume this means death death and more death at the hands of DMs who obviously revel in slaughtering PCs. They then go into a good long tirade about how they hated E.G.G. adventures and sign off with a sig that happens to use a quote attributed to a character he originally created! HAHAHA!
Anyhow, maybe this is the case in some instances. In the instances of first edition feel that I am familiar with, it meant using your spells, abilities, and smarts in ways that one would find uncommon when compared to classic video puzzle games like Myst or gore fests like Doom, Quake and their ilk.
Oddly enough I always hear lots of "talk" about "Quality Role Play" but "See" less and less of it as time goes by and more and more Doom/Quake.
In my own personal "1st edition feel" days, RP and problem solving were the centerpiece because you had a lot more time in between levels to develop and explore your character. That is a conversation for neither here nor now but it bears some merit when referring to some of that "1st edition feel" that is quintisentially RA. If you go in expecting to "clear a level" all the PCs will die...(and possibly not have fun) OR suddenly get A WHOLE LOT BETTER at their Role Playing and problem solving!
I remember a 1st edition feel where PCs used stone to flesh on walls filled with veins of rare ore...sustaining themselves on eating the flesh and enriching their pouches with the raw metals... or feeding the rubbery gristle to monsters in exchange for safe passage.
I also remember a 1st edition feel where characters and their foes used spells like "dig" and rock to mud to dissolve problems that adamantine weapons and strength scores of 30 couldn't solve. I recall tunneling, flying and swimming not merely as combat tactics to "OWN" on another player or Vis a Vi the GM vs. the Players... but as means to solve terrain or conditional problem and score loot!
I remember having to actually USE spells like water breathing and resistance to cold to explore the depths of unknown lakes and streams... and finding things there. All the while I sat wondering what kind of crazy adventure writing monkey would hide such wealth in such strange places! Bill and Clark are those monkeys... or more appropriately that psycho frog and the big goat-boy. RA:R is all about those types of 1ed. More-so I think than that "other kind" people are always on and on about.
In those days the "backstory" was more sublimely folded into the text instead of being thrown right in your face along with a flow chart and graphic web to explain the plot. One could theoretically do this with all the varied NPCs for Rappan Athuk if they were so inclined and add say... another 300 pages to the already voluminous product! They could include flow charts of who is friendly with whom in the dungeon and what the various factions are, how they relate to one another and what their minion rank in the Army of Orcus is for added fluff. Or they can find it there in the text as presented and ultimately via 1ed style make it their own!
Anyhow, if you haven't heard of it, bummer. If you've heard of it but only heard of the kill ratio and not had the intestinal fortitude to delve its mysteries yourself thats really sad. I for one hope you find yourself exploring its halls someday, if nothing else it will be quite memorable.
Case
Last edited:
ThirdWizard
First Post
Treebore said:
In all fairness, the quote was "most famous." If it were only "famous" I don't think there would be complaints.
Melan
Explorer
As for "most famous and most feared", that's just Orcus being geeked about his and Bill Webb's baby, and a few fans being fans. It is probably the most infamous d20 dungeon, although I am sure more people are familiar with Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil or the Banewarrens. Larger audience, more fame, that simple. It is not the most deadly dungeon either. Just staying in Necroland, Demons&Devils would give it a run for the money. It may be the most feared d20 dungeon. But still not as feared as Tomb of Horrors. No way.
It is basically a good, big and deadly dungeon you can spend a few months adventuring in. My players liked Tomb of Abysthor better, but there is something to be said about fearsome - they didn't fear ToA but they feared Rappan Athuk, and they didn't even see the really bad stuff. So RA:
- is a big dungeon,
- deadly,
- doesn't give a damn about dungeon ecology (there is a bit more than in Tegel Manor, though
),
- is focused on exploration, combat and puzzle solving, with little NPC interaction except "Roll for initiative!"
If you like that sort of thing, RA is worth the money. I am personally happy with my three booklets and won't buy the collector's edition, but that's not a discouragement. That's because I already have most of the material.
If you don't, the answer is the obvious "so don't buy it". Truth to tell, I am fed up with cheerleaders who try to pimp their favourite products to everybody under the sun. That goes for you, Nightfall, especially. It is blatantly clear that Shemeska would be disappointed by the module if she bought it, and yet you go on trying to sell it to her. Why? You aren't doing her, and yourself, or Necromancer, a service.
It is basically a good, big and deadly dungeon you can spend a few months adventuring in. My players liked Tomb of Abysthor better, but there is something to be said about fearsome - they didn't fear ToA but they feared Rappan Athuk, and they didn't even see the really bad stuff. So RA:
- is a big dungeon,
- deadly,
- doesn't give a damn about dungeon ecology (there is a bit more than in Tegel Manor, though
),- is focused on exploration, combat and puzzle solving, with little NPC interaction except "Roll for initiative!"
If you like that sort of thing, RA is worth the money. I am personally happy with my three booklets and won't buy the collector's edition, but that's not a discouragement. That's because I already have most of the material.
If you don't, the answer is the obvious "so don't buy it". Truth to tell, I am fed up with cheerleaders who try to pimp their favourite products to everybody under the sun. That goes for you, Nightfall, especially. It is blatantly clear that Shemeska would be disappointed by the module if she bought it, and yet you go on trying to sell it to her. Why? You aren't doing her, and yourself, or Necromancer, a service.
Treebore
First Post
NPC interation roll initiative only? Sory Melan, but if that is how you ran the module, than you didn't do it justice.
Ecology doesn't make sense? It has priests of Orcus. They can make any crazy ecology make sense, and RA's ecology isn't that nonsensical.
If you run RA as a "static" setting then it isn't that great, it takes a DM with a knack for bringing things to life to make it show its best. Having the NPC's as just things to cut down? Yeah, the adventure would suck.
Ecology doesn't make sense? It has priests of Orcus. They can make any crazy ecology make sense, and RA's ecology isn't that nonsensical.
If you run RA as a "static" setting then it isn't that great, it takes a DM with a knack for bringing things to life to make it show its best. Having the NPC's as just things to cut down? Yeah, the adventure would suck.
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
Wow...I leave the board over night, and suddenly the two threads I check most recently turn into crossfire zones. Who let the Morlocks out? 
Melan
Explorer
What should I do with the ogres and stuff? Talk to them? Invite them to a pleasant afternoon of tea and biscuits?Treebore said:
It states right up it is not an ecology experiment. In the text. I also see that as a good thing... really, why should dungeons have functional ecologies? What's wrong with improbability, surrealism and plainly fantastic stuff that doesn't make sense from a conventional viewpoint? IMHO dungeons per definitionem "don't make sense". I see no need to "explain" the rationales for why monsters and traps are there. They are there because the players will find them entertaining. Of course, I wouldn't put live goblins in an abandoned pyramid otherwise inhabited by undead, but that's still only thematic appropriateness and not a real ecology.
What do the monsters eat? Probably adventurers. What are 22 trolls doing with a jug of alchemy? We don't know either.
Recognise this bit? I hope you do.
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