D&D 5E What's the problem with certain types of creatures being immune to Sneak Attack?

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Dausuul

Legend
I had another post here about how an undead body can and indeed must have weak spots, but then I realized this was a moot point.

Sneak attack in 5E means knowing how to strike to take advantage of a foe's distraction. Period. This is not my interpretation--it's a direct quote from the ability description. Nothing in that description mentions vital areas or weak spots or any such thing. As long as there is some means by which one hit can deal more damage than another, you can take advantage of a distraction to deal a more deadly blow, even if that just means "You hit the ooze dead center with all your strength."

If any creature is immune to sneak attack in 5E, it should be a creature that can't be distracted; a beholder, for example. Perhaps the "vigilant" ability, which grants immunity to surprise, could also apply to sneak attacks.
 
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XunValdorl_of_Kilsek

Banned
Banned
So are there "vital spots" on a skeleton or zombie? Of course! There are parts of a skeleton that are much more important to its functioning than others.

There aren't vital spots for undead in D&D because there are no called shots. If you want to go that route then I could say my fighter hits all living humanoids in the jugular and all fights end quickly. A shot to the head, or the knee or any other area on an undead creature has always been the same as being hit anywhere else. Magic is what animates it, not the functioning of the brain or the beating of the heart. Cutting the tendons of a zombie do nothing to stop it's fingers from moving or it's legs.

When you have to crank up the BS in order to explain why something would work then it's time to call it a day.
 

Dausuul

Legend
When you have to crank up the BS in order to explain why something would work then it's time to call it a day.

So, ancient dragons should be immune to fighters with swords? Because you have to crank up some first-class BS to explain how a hundred-foot dragon can get anything more than a minor ouchie from a three-foot longsword. It's like a person--an alert person who's up and fighting, mind you, not lying there snoring--being killed by a mouse wielding a sewing needle.

Anyway, the point is moot; I just updated my post after realizing the whole question of "vital spots" doesn't apply in 5E. Whether undead have vital spots is irrelevant. All that matters is whether it is possible for them to be distracted. (Interestingly, you could make a stronger case for skeletons and zombies being SA-immune than for liches or death knights... or you could if 5E still bought into the idea that such creatures are utterly mindless. However, they now have Int 6 and 5 respectively, implying some capacity for intentional self-defense.)
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
It's absurd because... Again vital spot does not necessarily equate to killing blow.

Right, but I am not speaking in absolutes. It does not necessarily involve vital areas, but you admit it's more likely to involve them, since the vital areas more frequently lead to death (that's why they are considered vital) than the non-vital ones.

Second no one claimed the rogue has comprehensive knowledge of every vital spot on every creature,

On the contrary, several people did claim that up-thread. They justified it just as I spelled it out, claiming they learned them from wizards, notes, assassin guild masters, etc.. I didn't just make up the argument I am replying to, that is the argument people made.

I'm afraid, when you say things like "no one claimed", you need to check and see what others were claiming before you jumped into the debate :) This is also the issue highlighted in the article that started this discussion. You may view SA different than others - but I am not debating just your view of it.

On another note I am still waiting for the example you alluded to in your previous post...

The example is just that the party comes across a dead monster and, for whatever reason, it would be helpful if they knew how it died. That's it. I am not saying the rogue would always know they answer, or even often. I am just arguing the rogue might have a better chance, because of their knowledge concerning the vital areas of various monsters. But that is not reflected in the rules, which is I think one sign the writers merely tacked on this explanation when they changed the 2e backstab ability to being sneak attack. It's not really that well thought out an ability.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Right, but I am not speaking in absolutes. It does not necessarily involve vital areas, but you admit it's more likely to involve them, since the vital areas more frequently lead to death (that's why they are considered vital) than the non-vital ones.

Since it's up to any individual player to describe what type of vital spot it is and the only killing blow is when hit points drop to zero... I don't agree that it's more likely to involve a killing blow (they are all vital spots), so please don't put words in my mouth and/or assume what I "admit".

On the contrary, several people did claim that up-thread. They justified it just as I spelled it out, claiming they learned them from wizards, notes, assassin guild masters, etc.. I didn't just make up the argument I am replying to, that is the argument people made.

Citation please... I know I brought up what you listed as ways a rogue could learn about creatures but I'd like to see who (besides you) is claiming that the rogue has comprehensive knowledge of every creatures anatomy.

I'm afraid, when you say things like "no one claimed", you need to check and see what others were claiming before you jumped into the debate :) This is also the issue highlighted in the article that started this discussion. You may view SA different than others - but I am not debating just your view of it.

Please can you provide an example where this was stated, it should be relatively easy unless there isn't one... As to whether you are or are not debating "just" my view... if you're quoting me, and only me then I think it's natural to assume those posts address my points and posts... isn't it?

The example is just that the party comes across a dead monster and, for whatever reason, it would be helpful if they knew how it died. That's it. I am not saying the rogue would always know they answer, or even often. I am just arguing the rogue might have a better chance, because of their knowledge concerning the vital areas of various monsters. But that is not reflected in the rules, which is I think one sign the writers merely tacked on this explanation when they changed the 2e backstab ability to being sneak attack. It's not really that well thought out an ability.

This "example" doesn't in any way support your claims, it's just a situation you've created that gives no reasons for a rogue who can SA being learned in the general anatomy of a monster... at least no more so than any other adventurer who regularly slays and kills the same things... We all know where and how to kill things!! I've gone over a number of reasons the logic of "knowing where to strike a monster to hurt it" does not equate to "enough general knowledge of a monster's anatomy to help heal it or determine how it died.". In your first paragraph above you even admit you aren't speaking in absolutes yet you can't see how only your interpretation of SA as striking vital spots necessitates general knowledge of the anatomy of the creatures being hurt... of course again, every adventurer should have anatomy knowledge based on your logic and thus it's a zero sum.
 

ccooke

Adventurer
I know there are several pages, but I wanted to respond to the OP.

For me personally, I think it does make sense to be able to sneak attack some undead and some golems. Undead and golems both still have moving parts which can be damaged in such a way to hamper them.

I don't believe oozes and jellies have an obviously visible anatomy to target though. I can understand saying they are normally immune to sneak attack.

A good middle ground might be to allow knowledge checks to come into play here. It makes sense to me that a rogue who has studied oozes or undead would be able to pick out the weak points of their anatomy; know where to hit them where it hurts. I like the idea of knowledge skills being made more attractive.

However, that then brings up the question of why a wizard or a fighter who has those knowledge skills couldn't do the same thing. I'm not really sure what the answer to that would be. If I try to think about it too much, I end up realizing that D&D sneak attack doesn't always make sense if I put too much thought into it. Still, I feel like there's some way that what I mentioned here might be used to find a good middle ground between the 3rd Edition way of saying some things are just flatly immune to sneak attack and the 4th/5th edition way of saying everything is just flatly vulnerable to sneak attack.




Out of curiosity, how do things change if we assume a multiclass rogue/fighter split evenly? I'm curious because my current character is a Half-Orc Rogue 1/Fighter 1. I focused on strength and two handed weapons. There are times when it seems as though my damage is quite high.

However, the character in the group who currently seems to somewhat break the game is a barbarian who has focused on two weapon fighting. He gets to add his bonus rage damage to each attack; even with something like a whip or a dagger in his off-hand, there are times when it seems over-the-top compared to other characters.

You seem to have a better grasp of the end game than I do, so I propose the question to you concerning how these options play out at higher levels. I'm mainly familiar with levels 1-4 of 5th Edition.

(Replying to the question, although I think pure DPS isn't really anything to do with this thread much)
[SBLOCK]
Taking an even mixture of the two notional characters in the example I worked out, you can go either strength-based or dexterity based.
For the strength-based Fighter/Rogue, using a greatsword as in the fighter example, you end up doing 20.55 damage per round average, with sneak attacks doing an extra 3d6 15 rounds out of 16, for a total average damage (factoring in sneak and misses) of 30.39 damage at level 20. Once per fight you can also take an extra attack action which will do a further 20.55 damage on average. So, a tiny bit worse than a pure (DEX based, with an additional feat) rogue on average, but the extra action makes a difference when you need it.

Going the DEX based approach I ended up speccing out a rapier and handaxe build (handaxes being light *and* throwable, which is useful for a dex-fighter). Assuming two weapon fighting, the duel-wielder feat and at least one of the fighting styles chosen to be two weapon fighting, you end up with three attacks per round (two rapier, one handaxe) and using your sneak attack damage 63 in 64 rounds (remember, this is still against the pit fiend, AC 17). That comes out to 21.825 damage on average for a round, or 32.16 factoring in sneaks, misses etc. However, the "extra" comes from this build having an extra feat compared to the strength-based fighter. The fighter and rogue I chose was a very lightly optimised rogue and a very basic fighter, to prove that the fighter didn't need any advantage to outdamage the rogue. Combining them in the most obvious ways leads to a very basic strength-based fighter/rogue and a slightly optimised dex-based one.

It's also worth noting that by "optimised" here, I mean only "character options spent on improving combat ability". Each of these characters would have six ability score increases (or feats), and assuming the primary combat stat started out at 14 (very conservative; I'd be unsurprised if it started at 16 for most characters that were primarily combat-oriented) no more than three or four have been spent. Either two or three ability score increases or feats are unspecified, and would probably have gone into optimising something other than pure combat.

As to the barbarian... Going with the traditional greataxe, and taking a pure barbarian to level 20... and assuming that the character can rage every turn of a combat (so we're looking at a "highest possible average" here. the math is a bit more complex since there's advantage and one attack if the barbarian misses, but here's some rough figures for attacking an AC 17 creature:

At level 20 there are two attacks per round, dealing avg 15.5 per normal hit and average 34 per crit. Crits are 1 in 10, normal hits 15 in 16 (both due to advantage) which means each attack does 17.93 damage for a total of 35.8625 damage.
One round in eight at least one of the attacks miss, and the barbarian gets an extra attack, again doing 17.93 - which brings the total average damage per round to 38.1.

Going for a TWF build instead... the best you can do is 1d8 for the main hand and 1d6 for the off hand (1d8 is the best you can do, one handed)
Main hand damage: 1d8 + 5 + 4 = 13.5 average, 8 + 4 + 5 + 2d8 = 26 average for a crit. Average per round: 15.26
Off hand (No damage bonus from STR): 1d6 + 4 = 7.5 avg, 6 + 4 + 2d6 = 17 average for a crit. Average per round: 8.73
Which comes out at 39.24 per round, plus the extra attack on rounds with a miss... a total damage output of 42.10

... You know, I expected to find the barbarian overpowered here - it certainly has felt it at the table. However, in at least this test, it's just right. Barbarians will do more damage *in one round* than a fighter could, but the fighter not only makes up for it on average (total average damage output of 41.1 for the fighter, or exactly 1.0 points less than the barbarian) but the fighter can *also* choose to attack twice, increasing damage to 82.2 twice per combat. Which means the fighter is basically as good, but is able to tactically choose when to completely swing things their way. And the fighter is attacking four or eight times in a round, so they could utterly decimate hordes of weaker creatures.

[/SBLOCK]
Hell, this is too long. Putting the whole thing in a spoiler block so as not to bore people who aren't interested.
TLDR: Fighter/Rogues are (in terms of pure combat, against AC 17) better than pure rogues and not as good as pure fighters. A feat adds something like +1.77 to average damage. Barbarians to my surprise aren't actually overpowered, they're just a lot swingier than Fighters. A level 20 fighter with no feats can outperform a barbarian with one feat, all else being roughly equal... so long as the fight doesn't last for more than 82 rounds. All the above is on average, and please remember that damage per round averages are only one facet. And not really related to this thread, except as background information.
 

3catcircus

Adventurer
Good point

I like having hit locations in a game. I also like, as part of having hit locations, for armor and HP to be handled differently. Howevever, even though I prefer that, it's been my experience that it doesn't fit very well into D&D; it tends to clash with some of the quirks and abstractions found in D&D. I somewhat hit on that earlier in the thread when I said that I just have to not think about it too much when playing D&D. While I like a lot of the effects and less abstract things you mention, I think they'd be outside the scope of D&D; adding them all would essentially create a different game. My suggestion to someone wanting all of those things would in fact be to play a different game. That's not in any way intended as a knock toward D&D. I'm simply saying that, even though I like both D&D and the things you mentioned, they don't tend to mix well... at least not in a way that I feel would create something still recognizable as D&D.

Many other games are (in my opinion) better suited to having things like hit location, less abstract HP, facing, and the various other rules which make combat less abstract (and possibly a little harsher*.) I'm not familiar with Twilight:2013, but you mention it in your post. I am familiar with GURPS 4th Edition, and it handles many of the things you mention very well. I've seen discussions of Rolemaster which lead me to believe it has a focus well suited to the things you mention. I'm sure there are others as well.

*Poor choice of words, but I'm not sure how else to explain what I mean. An example I'll use would be GURPS -since I'm more familiar with it. Getting hit is, in my view, more harsh because HPs are something more tangible and less abstract in that system than they are in D&D. However, the game doesn't assume you get hit; rather than just get hit when someone rolls higher than your AC -which that game doesn't have, you can attempt to parry, dodge, or block. Another reason I use it as an example is because I think the Dungeon Fantasy line of products serves as an interesting comparison to D&D 5th Edition's modular approach.


Links provided for reference:
Twilight 2013 http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/58794/T2013--Twilight-2013-Core-Rules
Rolemaster http://ironcrown.com/rolemaster/
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/dungeonfantasy/

I've played older versions of Rolemaster and (more recently) HARP. While RM and HARP provide some more interesting results, I think "a table for everything" drives away people who didn't grow up with it.

I'm not familiar with GURPS, so I can't really provide much in the way of comment on that.

I mentioned TW2013 because, despite the company going out of business and the core rules campaign background being a bit shaky, the game mechanics themselves are pretty solid. In order to adapt the mechanics to D&D, though, you'd have to change the way hit points work, the way the damage works, AND accept that magic is going to be deadly unless it gets scaled back. Instead of getting more and more hp at every level, you have a fixed amount based solely on size, strength, and constitution. Instead of subtracting damage until you hit zero, you compare the damage of each hit to a set of thresholds based upon your base hit points (i.e. 1 hp, base hp, 2x hp, 3x hp) to determine the effects of each wound.

In TW2013, you roll a d20 dice pool mechanic where the amount you succeed by gets added to a (fairly low) base damage and compared to the target's hp. Effects range from losing your next turn (shaken up from a flesh wound), to -1 dice on actions, to -3 dice on actions, to going into shock or bleeding out, or even (head or chest wound doing enough damage) to cause immediate incapacitation/death. Additional wounds to the same hit location raise the wound level (but only by one level). It is simple and elegant.

Take a single point of damage to your right leg? Your skill level penalty is reduced by one (which could reduce your dice pool) for any abilities or skills using that leg, and you can't sprint.

Take a "serious injury" to your chest? You reduce your skill level by three for all actions and need to pass the equivalent of a saving throw to see whether or not you go into shock (fail by enough and you become unstable). The shock effect basically forces the equivalent of a morale check to determine if you can act during the remainder of the combat or if you are semiconscious. The unstable effect is basically like bleeding out and results in all of your currently injured hit locations increasing their wound level by one and this continues at fixed time intervals usually 1 minute or the equivalent of the end of each full round of combat) until a hit locations goes beyond the worst wound level unless a party member manages to stabilize you first - you've bled out.

What this means is you can take a beating for a while, but one solid hit or a bunch of them that add up will take you out of the fight quickly.
 

XunValdorl_of_Kilsek

Banned
Banned
Let's look at something.

Sneak Attack
You know how to strike to take advantage
of a foe’s distraction. When you attack a
creature and hit, you can deal extra damage
to that target if you have advantage against
it or if another enemy of the target is within
5 feet of it and that enemy is able to take
actions. The amount of this extra damage is
determined by your rogue level, as noted in
the Sneak Attack column in the Rogue table.


If we go by this description then that should leave out constructs such as Golems and certain undead such as Skeletons and Zombies. Distraction is something that conscious creatures can suffer from. The creatures I mentioned do not think for themselves so if they are dead set on attacking you then your buddy hitting him from behind may not even cause the creature to miss a beat.
 

ccooke

Adventurer
Let's look at something.

Sneak Attack
You know how to strike to take advantage
of a foe’s distraction. When you attack a
creature and hit, you can deal extra damage
to that target if you have advantage against
it or if another enemy of the target is within
5 feet of it and that enemy is able to take
actions. The amount of this extra damage is
determined by your rogue level, as noted in
the Sneak Attack column in the Rogue table.


If we go by this description then that should leave out constructs such as Golems and certain undead such as Skeletons and Zombies. Distraction is something that conscious creatures can suffer from. The creatures I mentioned do not think for themselves so if they are dead set on attacking you then your buddy hitting him from behind may not even cause the creature to miss a beat.

The sneak attack rules you quoted are, of course, exactly right. The issue is with the examples you give.

Firstly, 5e skeletons and zombies have INT scores. That means the rules treat them as creatures with at least a rudimentary intelligence. This makes sense to me, since they only attack through physical combat. That means they have to react - intelligently - as physical entities to threats. Which means that they have to be bright enough to take a swing at an enemy. They have a positive attack bonus, so they're not just flailing blindly. Thus, the magic animating them is capable of creating a minimum level of tactical awareness - walk over here, attack here. All of which means that it's possible to draw a skeleton or zombie in to a feint.

Secondly, even if it were impossible to catch them off guard, they are still physical entities. They can only move so fast. The ability to sneak attack when an ally is adjacent to the target models the fact that the skeleton or zombie only has two limbs and a limited awareness - while it is physically moving to defend itself from the rogue's ally, it is leaving gaps in its defences which the rogue is trained to exploit.

(This all applies equally well to any *physical* entity (such as constructs). Creatures not bound by ordinary physics or limits on awareness and defence should definitely be unsneakable)

And sure, this post is entirely fluff. But it's fluff that 100% matches the 5th edition rules we have.
 
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Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Well then I'm not sure what your point is since it's all subjective and more reasons than just the rationalization of rules have been provided...
I simply wanted to have a friendly discussion about a particular comment (the first post of yours which I quoted), because I think it's selective reasoning. That's it. I'm not making an overall argument concerning 5e SA, as I'm not its target audience so I really don't care. I'm not making an overall argument concerning 3.x, because I don't play it anymore. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, because it's all subjective.

But I guess there's so much ambient vitriol in this thread that a friendly discussion isn't possible. So happy holidays, and good night.
 

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