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D&D 5E What's the problem with certain types of creatures being immune to Sneak Attack?

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Derren

Hero
And if the world is more like #2, then there are far fewer creatures that are immune to sneak attack than a world like #1.

And in a world like #2 all fighters are apparently rogues as they are the only ones to employ basic combat tactics?

I propose a world #3, a world where the rogues is a opportunist who balances his lack of direct combat expertise with a lot of skills (yes, including anatomical one) and who, if he is good, can always find a tool in his vast arsenal to do something, be it direct combat, indirect combat or support by being able to use pretty much every magical item that exists or by otherwise fulfilling an important role in the party with his expertise with non combat skills.
That is also a world where a rogue is not exlusively concerned with how much damage he can do by stabbing people as that is only one small part of what happens.



This whole issue is anoter "combat as sport" vs. "combat as war". If you want balanced tactical combat like in an MMO or competitive tabletop, then yes. Having sneak attack immune creatures creates an imbalance. But imo, that is not how D&D, or any RPG, should be played and while being supported should not be the benchmark for them.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
And in a world like #2 all fighters are apparently rogues as they are the only ones to employ basic combat tactics?

I don't view what I described as the full set of basic combat tactics, and I don't view saying Rogues are good at that subset of tactics as the same as saying Fighters cannot do them as well - just not as effectively as the rogue, who specializes in that subset of tactics.

I propose a world #3, a world where the rogues is a opportunist who balances his lack of direct combat expertise with a lot of skills (yes, including anatomical one)

OK, so justify that part. The anatomical one. What skill is it? They should be good at healing too, right, since they know anatomy so well? They should be able to identify damaged corpses too, since they know anatomy so well? Track based on the anatomy in footprints? They would be more likely to have a higher ability score in whatever is connected to that anatomy skill, right? Rogues with a higher ability score there, should be better at sneak attack than rogues with a lower ability score in that, right?

You see how this isn't making sense, I hope.

and who, if he is good, can always find a tool in his vast arsenal to do something, be it direct combat, indirect combat or support by being able to use pretty much every magical item that exists or by otherwise fulfilling an important role in the party with his expertise with non combat skills.

This is a version of the game with exceedingly few magic items. Should they change the entire set-up of the game in that respect, to help the rogue? If not, what then? And, why is this unique to the rogue, given magic items are usable by many classes?

That is also a world where a rogue is not exlusively concerned with how much damage he can do by stabbing people as that is only one small part of what happens.

Strawman. I didn't say that's all they are concerned with. I am talking about an ability that does extra damage, and how it works. Of course rogues can do lots of other things.

This whole issue is anoter "combat as sport" vs. "combat as war". If you want balanced tactical combat like in an MMO or competitive tabletop, then yes.

This is another strawman. I am not tlking about balanced combat, I am talking about what makes more logical sense for the ability and how it works.

I am asking why you think "anatomy expert" makes more sense to you than the other view. That has nothing at all to do with balanced combat and MMOs. Indeed, given the view of "they need to work around this limitation imposed by the rules rather than logic", which seems to me to be the perspective of the anatomy-expert-fans here, looks a lot more like an MMO issue to me than the other view.

Having sneak attack immune creatures creates an imbalance. But imo, that is not how D&D, or any RPG, should be played and while being supported should not be the benchmark for them.

You should tell that to someone talking about balance issues then. I didn't say a word about it. You seem to want a rogue who pours over technical medical manuals on anatomy in his spare time, but who is also incapable of applying that anatomical knowledge in any way other than in combat. That doesn't seem like a compelling explanation to me. It might seem like an MMO though.
 

Derren

Hero
I
Strawman. I didn't say that's all they are concerned with.

The second paragraph was not directed at you, but at this whole discussions and the people who think that the rogue must always do high damage in every situation as this seems the only benchmark they apply to D&D characters.
 

Dausuul

Legend
It isn't that rogues have a monopoly on effective combat tactics; rather, they are focused on delivering one devastating attack against a foe who's in a poor position to defend against it. Fighters train in a more versatile style, which does not depend on a distracted enemy or waiting for just the right opening. If you crunch the numbers, fighters equal or exceed rogue damage output in 5E, and they don't have to worry about setting up sneak attacks. They're also much better at evading or blocking the counterattack.

All in all, it boils down to the rogue being a skill-monkey who's mastered a few flashy tricks, while the fighter is a professional warrior whose combat style is less flashy and more practical.

The second paragraph was not directed at you, but at this whole discussions and the people who think that the rogue must always do high damage in every situation as this seems the only benchmark they apply to D&D characters.

Still a strawman. Who are the people saying this? So far as I can see, the universal sentiment among proponents of 5E's approach is that occasional sneak attack immunity is fine, but it should not apply to whole categories of monsters, especially not a "theme" category like undead. The rogue should have decent damage output in most situations.
 
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Farscape

Banned
Banned
There were a few swift action spells in Spell Compendium (grave strike, vine strike, etc.) that allowed you to sneak attack various monster types for one round. These spells were essentially worthless when put in magic item form, because the magic items in question required a standard action to use. By the time you were done activating the item, your turn was over, and the duration of the spell expired at the start of your next turn. So in order to really make use of these spells, you had to actually take a level in the spellcasting class in question.

There were also some augment crystals in Magic Item Compendium. The ones that allowed sneak attacks were Greater crystals, which meant that they had to be applied to +3 weapons or greater (and not just a total of +3 worth of flaming, holy, etc., but an actual +3 bonus).

So in short, no, you couldn't just use a few wands and scrolls.

Ummmmm yes you could. Scrolls and wands still work just fine.
 

Farscape

Banned
Banned
Where are you going to get all these scrolls and wands and such in 5E? You can't just walk down to Magic Item Wal-Mart and plunk down some gold. Your ability to find these things is entirely dependent on the DM handing them out. If the DM wants to run a low-magic, undead-heavy campaign, you're screwed.

There is nothing wrong with occasional "challenge monsters" that are immune to broad classes of attacks, but they should be rare and special. As I said in another thread, undead being immune to sneak attack is like goblinoids being immune to spells. Not some spells, but all spells, including the conjurations that 3E wizards often used to bypass SR. Imagine trying to play through "Red Hand of Doom" as a wizard if that were the case. Sure, you wouldn't be totally helpless; you could accomplish a fair bit with creative and tactical play. But you'd be very weak compared to the rest of the party.

So whats the difference between giving a few monster immunity to SA and the DM presenting a few monsters who have immunity to SA?

Its amazing how in these types of arguments the rogue is always bombarded with creatures that are immune to SA.
 

Mr. Patient

Adventurer
Ummmmm yes you could. Scrolls and wands still work just fine.

Perhaps I'm mistaken. Care to quote some rules to back up your statement? I have these:

SRD said:
Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
...
Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

How are you using a wand or scroll as a swift action? I will gladly defer to someone with greater rules knowledge in this area.
 

Farscape

Banned
Banned
The problem here is the not too old notion of people thinking their character sucks if they aren't always optimal.
 


MJS

First Post
I think its a fair ruling that backstabs should only be effective against targets that have functional vital organs and such. So most undead are out, slimes, oozes, and soforth.
 

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