Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)

[Maxperson]

I also don't like little changes like Loial not opening the Ways, or no mention of the word "ta'veren" (although that may still be coming).

They've mentioned Ta'veren several times in the show, starting in episode 1.

One could argue that, given the cyclical nature of tie, Lews Therin was also a Dragon Reborn, but that the "Dragon" is reborn at the end of each Age.

They didn't know that, though. In the age of legends, nobody remembered any prior Dragon, so Lews Therin was the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn.

 

[Mercurius]

One element of the series that I find a bit awkward from a world-building sense, is the hodge-podge multiculturalism. I have no issue with the showrunners making it (far) more multicultural than in the books, but as a world-builder, the lack of any internal consistency is annoying.

The only vaguely consistent element that I've seen is that Borderlanders seem to be Asian. This could be developed in an interesting way, if it was implied that they migrated from Shara at some point in the past. But starting at the beginning, the Two Rivers looked more like contemporary Brooklyn than it did an isolated mountain region set in any part of the world. Meaning, it isn't that it didn't look like Scotland; it didn't look like the Andes or Papua New Guinea, either.

I mean, I suppose one could argue that in the future that is Randland, all ethnicities would have mixed (just as some say, eventually we'll all look like Brazilians...which isn't a bad thing). But even so, I would think homogeneity would make more sense, so maybe everyone looks like Aram (if not everyone being that annoyingly handsome).

And before you get into a tither about what may seem--on a shallow reading--me complaining about the prevalence of POC, that is not at all what I am saying, so please don't go there. I am talking about world-building aesthetics and integrity, and the rather important tenets of verisimilitude and internal consistency. In that regard, Wheel of Time is an absolute mess.

What I think they should have done is decide on different regions of the continent having more specific ethnic characteristics, modeling them after real-world types, if only for the sake of drawing upon pools of actors. They could still have Nynaeve be played by the same actress given her origin as coming from somewhere other than the Two Rivers, although Egwene and Perrin would make less sense, or at least require a bit of alteration to their backstories. Again, they only really did this with the Borderlands, and maybe Siuan Sanche and the folks of the south (Tear, I believe).

And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...

 

[Mercurius]

They've mentioned Ta'veren several times in the show, starting in episode 1.

Oh, I missed that.

They didn't know that, though. In the age of legends, nobody remembered any prior Dragon, so Lews Therin was the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn.

Yeah, but it is implied in their knowledge of time. Everyone seems to know that people are reborn, again and again, so why wouldn't the Dragon be reborn again and again?

Meaning, I think it is an easy adjustment or clarification to the lore.

 

[Parmandur]

And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...

That, at least is straight from the book.

The fact of the matter is that ethnographic accuracy is not really a thing for TV and movies.

 

[Maxperson]

And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...

There's a good reason for her to look like that.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh, I missed that.

No worries. We all miss things.

Yeah, but it is implied in their knowledge of time. Everyone seems to know that people are reborn, again and again, so why wouldn't the Dragon be reborn again and again?

Yes, but they don't name their kids, "Lew Therin Telamon Reborn" or "Mierin Reborn." I mean, everyone is reborn, so it literally goes without saying.

Lews Therin Telamon earned the appellation Dragon at some point during the War of Power. He wasn't born with it, so they wouldn't have added "reborn" to that in any case.

 

[MarkB]

No worries. We all miss things.

Yes, but they don't name their kids, "Lew Therin Telamon Reborn" or "Mierin Reborn." I mean, everyone is reborn, so it literally goes without saying.

Lews Therin Telamon earned the appellation Dragon at some point during the War of Power. He wasn't born with it, so they wouldn't have added "reborn" to that in any case.

As a non-book-reader, calling him the Dragon Reborn did a better job of tying in that scene and character with what Rand was going through.

The one thing that didn't really work for me was the sudden introduction of the little statuette McGuffin-thing that Rand would have to channel through in order to win. It serves an okay purpose in clueing Moiraine in to his true intentions at the end, but for viewers it basically comes out of nowhere, to the extent that I half-expected it to be some kind of trick to misdirect Rand's power, perhaps let Moiraine capture it for her own use.

 

[Maxperson]

As a non-book-reader, calling him the Dragon Reborn did a better job of tying in that scene and character with what Rand was going through.

If I hadn't read the books, I don't think I would have had difficulty tying in a scene naming the man who is going to fight the Dark One, Dragon, to the future Dragon Reborn. Especially since he was going to be doing in a way that would corrupt the One Power, clearly indicating this was a scene set in the past. They've talked over and over again about people being reborn.

The one thing that didn't really work for me was the sudden introduction of the little statuette McGuffin-thing that Rand would have to channel through in order to win. It serves an okay purpose in clueing Moiraine in to his true intentions at the end, but for viewers it basically comes out of nowhere, to the extent that I half-expected it to be some kind of trick to misdirect Rand's power, perhaps let Moiraine capture it for her own use.

Yeah. Add that to the list of things that I didn't like. Rand gets that little statue in a different way and it represents(in the books at least) more than just what Moiraine told him. He didn't get it until after the Eye of the World encounter.

 

[Mercurius]

There's a good reason for her to look like that.

Well, I don't remember if the Aiel were pale in the books - it has been 25 years since I ready any of them other than Eye. It doesn't make sense, though, from a purely anatomical sense, unless she was from the northern wastes.

 

[Mercurius]

No worries. We all miss things.

Yes, but they don't name their kids, "Lew Therin Telamon Reborn" or "Mierin Reborn." I mean, everyone is reborn, so it literally goes without saying.

Lews Therin Telamon earned the appellation Dragon at some point during the War of Power. He wasn't born with it, so they wouldn't have added "reborn" to that in any case.

Yeah, I still think it makes sense - especially coming from the Amyrlin Seat. It is acknowledging that he's not the "first Dragon," with the assumption being that a singular soul is reborn every age to fulfill a certain role.

 

[Digital M@]

So far I have really enjoyed the show. with 8 episodes a season and maybe 7 seasons, the whole story needs to be condensed to no more than 56 hours. For reference the first book is a 24 hour audio book and there are 14 books. I didn't mind having Perrin married, and Matt have family issues. those changes make the 3 males have distinctly different backgrounds and motivations/challenges even though they are all the same age and come from the same small village.

I like how in episode 7 we learn about the conversation between Rand and Tam with the fever ranting. It shows that information that readers thought glossed over or emitted can come back when the characters are ready to share with the audience.

The sets are solid and costumes have been good and the special effects for the weaves match the theme. Moiraine has been very well adapted to screen, keeping her strength and sense of authority mixed with her compassion. Nynaeve is better than the books. She seems less evil and childish than she does in the book. In the book this young 20 something girls knows better about everything than every other person on the planet. She threatens and belittles everyone who disagrees with her and she never grows. I hated her character in the book. In main introduction in the book talks about the switch she carries to hit people that act in ways she does not approve of and then she threatens Tom with the switch if he doesn't leave the inn for a woman's circle meeting or some such.

I am trying to just enjoy what they create. The story as read is 280+ hours of reading and I have not tried to storyboard it down to 56 hours so I am not going to nit pick each decision. My wife has not read the books and has enjoyed the show (minus the white cloak scenes as they are pretty disturbing).

GoT first season was spectacular as was the first book. It was the best of all of the seasons and books. I think this show will be more consistent through its seasons than GoT as the story will have more focus.

The story would benefit by adding more humor and light moments to keep the tension not feeling forced. The traveling people should have been more friendly in their introduction and down time scenes should be mixed with laughter or warmth.

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[Parmandur]

Well, I don't remember if the Aiel were pale in the books - it has been 25 years since I ready any of them other than Eye. It doesn't make sense, though, from a purely anatomical sense, unless she was from the northern wastes.

Extremely pale, red hair and light colors all around. Already as of hapter 37, Rand has been called out as looking like an Aiel due to his light coloring and height.

It's a founder effect, anyways: the entire population that set up in the Wastes after the Breaking were pale.

 

[Mercurius]

Extremely pale, red hair and light colors all around. Already as of hapter 37, Rand has been called out as looking like an Aiel due to his light coloring and height.

It's a founder effect, anyways: the entire population that set up in the Wastes after the Breaking were pale.

In my re-read, I thought he was called out for looking like the Aiel due to his height and hair, not his skin tone. But I'll take your word for it.

 

[Mercurius]

So far I have really enjoyed the show. with 8 episodes a season and maybe 7 seasons, the whole story needs to be condensed to no more than 56 hours. For reference the first book is a 24 hour audio book and there are 14 books. I didn't mind having Perrin married, and Matt have family issues. those changes make the 3 males have distinctly different backgrounds and motivations/challenges even though they are all the same age and come from the same small village.

I like how in episode 7 we learn about the conversation between Rand and Tam with the fever ranting. It shows that information that readers thought glossed over or emitted can come back when the characters are ready to share with the audience.

I am trying to just enjoy what they create. The story as read is 280+ hours of reading and I have not tried to storyboard it down to 56 hours so I am not going to nit pick each decision.

While I appreciate your optimism and agree with your general approach of enjoying it for what it is and feeling they are doing an overall good job of it, I'm a bit more concerned than you are that--by the time they wrap up the series, say after 6-8 seasons, they're going to have cut away so much of it that it will have greatly damaged the overall story.

I've been wondering how they're going to adequately tell the full story, but was coming at it from a different angle. I was thinking that if they're taking the one season per book approach, there's no way they're going to run through 14 seasons. I thought maybe they would extend the seasons to 10 or 12 episodes, but evidently season 2 is also only 8 episodes.

I think that's a big mistake: short seasons. I don't know why they're only doing 8 episodes, when 10 seems like the bare minimum and 12 would be better. I mean, from a viewing standpoint, I feel disappointed that the season is already over. It felt like it was just getting going.

On the other hand, Jordan is infamous for his over-writing, and certainly they don't have to try to cover anywhere close to every sub-plot. As I was discussing with someone in PMs, from what I've heard, he really could have condensed books 8-10 to one book. Maybe condense books 1-7 to 4, 8-10 to 1, and 11-14 to 2 and you've got 7 seasons. Still, that doesn't feel like enough, especially in only 56 episodes.

The danger is that it could end up feeling like a Cliff Notes version of the "real" story. Game of Thrones did a good job of avoiding that feeling, as did the LotR films (which were far more close to the books in terms of translating the majority of the books to film). I was already starting to feel that by the 2nd episode of Wheel of Time.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I don't remember it being confusing.

It's hugely confusing on the first read. I just re-read it (on my 3rd or 4th re-read) and only this time figured out that Rand didn't do anything to Agenor, but that the latter simply and idiotically burned himself out by using too much power from the Eye. The teleporting was without previous precident, as was Rand using those steps to reach Ishy's domain (which was weird even by later lore; it's presumably a variation on Skimming). And what happened when Rand cut Ishy's cord was also unclear on first reading. It's a mess of an ending that only works because it's got some epic bits as Rand wrecks the Shadowspawn army.

 

[John R Davis]

Haven't read the books.
Just about followed it and enjoyed the TV series. Episode 8 was very good ( and enjoyed it more than Witcher 2.8)

 

[pming]

Hiya!

One element of the series that I find a bit awkward from a world-building sense, is the hodge-podge multiculturalism. I have no issue with the showrunners making it (far) more multicultural than in the books, but as a world-builder, the lack of any internal consistency is annoying.

I was just going to post my thoughts about this myself.
I binge watched the season on the 23rd/24th. I also was expecting to see a wide variety of human-types (in every way), and was looking forward to seeing how the producers saw various people. But when watching it...I was honestly confused and couldn't keep track of who was who, who was from where, who was who's wife/husband or mother/father. Quite distracting, taxing and really REALLY pulled me out of the suspension of disbelief.

This continued for a good 4 or 5 episodes (about half the season) until I at least had a grasp of who the 6 or 7 main characters were.

The only vaguely consistent element that I've seen is that Borderlanders seem to be Asian.

Agreed! That threw me for a loop. I had trained my brain at that point to accept that there was no "actual people/cultures with shared characteristics"...then BLAM! "Well, except for the Asians. They all look alike...mostly..." LOL! As someone with the last name Ming, I found that amusing (even though I don't really look Asian; my dad does when he laughs; my grandpa, great grandpa, etc...yup...definitely Chinese). Probably wasn't supposed to be though... I have a bit of a dry/dark sense of humour I guess.

This could be developed in an interesting way, if it was implied that they migrated from Shara at some point in the past. But starting at the beginning, the Two Rivers looked more like contemporary Brooklyn than it did an isolated mountain region set in any part of the world. Meaning, it isn't that it didn't look like Scotland; it didn't look like the Andes or Papua New Guinea, either.

Yup. Confusing and jumbled. More like a haphazard conglomeration of survivors from a world-apocalypse forced to live together than a tight-nit community with a shared history. I just didn't buy it I guess.

What I think they should have done is decide on different regions of the continent having more specific ethnic characteristics, modeling them after real-world types, if only for the sake of drawing upon pools of actors. They could still have Nynaeve be played by the same actress given her origin as coming from somewhere other than the Two Rivers, although Egwene and Perrin would make less sense, or at least require a bit of alteration to their backstories. Again, they only really did this with the Borderlands, and maybe Siuan Sanche and the folks of the south (Tear, I believe).

And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...

Again, I concur. As I stated above... "not a location of people with a history....more like a rag-tag fugitive fleet of people forced to settle in some area".

Maybe they could have done some explaining as to why Two Rivers was so 'multicultural'. Maybe we'll get something like that later. They had an opportunity when they did the 'flashback' to the last Dragon (Ep 8 ), with a thriving city with flying vehicles and everything.

That said... I did enjoy it overall. I don't think anything stood out to me as "...ugh... why...?". Then again, nothing stood out to me as "...ooohh... cool...!" either. Probably because everyone seemed to be haphazardly tossed together, mixed up, then thrown randomly to the winds...then the DM just rolled some random dice and looked on a "human races" table for each character, regardless of any consistency. So...hmmm...

I give it a solid 6 / 10. Entertaining, some neat stuff, but nothing very memorable or surprising. I mean, Nynaeve dies...but that's ok, she gets better 2 minutes later. They had a chance to make it at least memorable...but they chickened out.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[wicked cool]

Was this close to the ending of book 1. Would I be completely lost if I picked up book 2

 

[Parmandur]

Was this close to the ending of book 1. Would I be completely lost if I picked up book 2

I mean...yes, you would be lost. I don't think it's an unfair adaptation, per se, but there is a lot of material from the first book that didn't make it in that if you want to check out the books, you'll want to go for book 1. Whole characters and subots were cut.

 

[Maxperson]

give it a solid 6 / 10. Entertaining, some neat stuff, but nothing very memorable or surprising. I mean, Nynaeve dies...but that's ok, she gets better 2 minutes later. They had a chance to make it at least memorable...but they chickened out.

She didn't die. Her eyes never burned out all the way. She was dying and then Egwene healed her by accident.