Where do you draw the line for ECLs?

[reapersaurus]

Y'know, Reaper, you guys (i.e., the "we" that you mentioned) are just not Rufus enough.

ROFLMAOPIMP!
Duuuuuude!
what an incredibly perfect reference- i see someone's been listening very closely.
bravo!

but you don't want to give the perception that you're critical of the clique-injokeness over at NL - they'll plop either a banhammer on you so fast it'll make your head spin, or they'll just swell up ranks and spew such vitriolic venom at you (using embarrassing in-jokeness and self-referencing to try to make their 'points'), that it'll make you feel you're dealing with high-schoolers in a club treehouse.

It's too bad, too - they're funnier than hell at times over there, and their use of photoshop is quite sublime.

It's too bad you need a translater to decode their secret messages (they've devolved that far and don't even know it) and that attitude has got to go.

 

[Piratecat]

Keep the thread on topic, please!

 

[Glyfair]

Here's a simple solution. We point-buy, and creatures lose points based on ECL. (A drow has less points than a human)

I like this idea, but I think it would require a completely different system for balancing than ECL. For example, a large number of races have a high ECL just because of high stats. I want to look at each case individually.

In my last game I started everyone at 1st level. I told them if they wanted to play one of several ECL 1 races they could start at 1st level, but wouldn't gain 2nd level until they had the experience for 3rd, etc. If a player had expressed interest in an ECL +2 race I would probably consider it, but would have a hard time with a race higher than that.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[(contact)]

This is just a note to invite everyone to our club.

http://pub53.ezboard.com/bnutkinland

Nutkinland-- the peoples' elitists.

 

[CRGreathouse]

As a DM of a campaign starting at level 1, what is your cut-off for ECLs? I think anything over ECL 4 for a starting campiagn is pushing it.

Hmm, let's see. You'd allow a first level half-orc and a first-level half-dragon/human both start in a group? OK, ECL 4 works for me.

As a player, I'd ask for an ECL 4 human: 4 levels in fighter. Don't allow exotic races to get away with any more than the rest...

 

[Kwalish Kid]

There's nothing wrong with a game that descends into hack and slash. I have enjoyed many games of this type.

I am simply bringing to the fore the point that not all games need revolve upon the ability of one character in combat or in any other specific area of the game. Even with great disparities between the abilities of characters, a game can still be enjoyable.

I certainly don't think that one should sacrifice all elements of a game in order to foster some sort of mystical "learning experience". However, it is unwise to commit oneself to a course of action that seems free of risk out of an irrational fear. In a game based on random chance, some characters will often outshine the others. As 3E progresses through levels, much of the randomness drops away. By watching the progress of the players, a DM can bring about balance between the characters through the careful award of various in game boons, especially through the use of magic items.

Additionally, even a very powerful single character needs help when grappled by a much larger and stronger monster. One gets by with a little help from one's friends. Or so I heard from a rumour.

PS. My post has nothing to do with Nutkinland whatsoever.

 

[Simplicity]

I generally allow any ECL of 1 or 0. When the player chooses
an ECL 1 race, they begin with an apprentice level of their class.
When they finally get to 1000 XP, they get the full first level.
At 2000 XP, they get the second.

Someone else posted that they put the character at -1000 XP,
but this doesn't work out the same at higher levels since the XP
to get to fourth level (=third level +1 ECL) from
third level (=second level + 1 ECL) should be 3000 XP
(3000 XP-> 6000 XP). If you use
the -1000 XP rule, it is only 2000 XP.

 

[Doc_Souark]

Elitism ?

Reapersauris first off this shouldn't be about ENWorlder or Nutkinlander, we're all GAMERS , whatever info or suggestions we can share with each other is what counts.

BTW if you want a elitist board come to mine, it's so exclusive nobody posts lol

 

[Psion]

Personally I don't care for maintaining the mythical balance and fairness that many people talk about. If it suits the storyline then sure go ahead and have a bugbear fighter join the rest of the party.

Sure... if it suits the storyline AND you are willing to live with the consequences. I once ran a 13th level mage in a 5th level party. It was fun, and the GM and other players where willing to put up with it.

That doesn't make balance mythical. There are some fundamental issues that come up. First everyone needs a role to play, and people often get discontent if they are continually outshined by the bright boy of the bunch. Second, it becomes more problematic to plan challenging encounters and scenarios. Sure, you may be able to navigate those problems, but don't pretend they don't exist.

Remember that a ECL 5 PC defeating a EL1 encounter gives neglible experience to the ECL 5 member.

The core rules don't accomodate this; it works around party average. The FRCS has a method to do this; you basically figure XP for each character individually according to their ECL and divide the total by the number of party members.

I have my own variant of this since I don't use CRs to determine XP. I figure a party average level. Any character above the party average earns 20% less experience; anyone below the party average earns 20% less.

 

[Humanophile]

There's nothing wrong with a game that descends into hack and slash. I have enjoyed many games of this type.

I am simply bringing to the fore the point that not all games need revolve upon the ability of one character in combat or in any other specific area of the game. Even with great disparities between the abilities of characters, a game can still be enjoyable.

True, but with several very important caveats. First, there's a huge difference between sitting at a table with the agreement that one character will be stronger than the others, and coming to the table expecting balance and seeing someone come in much more powerful than you. Most gamers do expect balance and like power, and if you and every gamer you know somehow automatically gains wonderous roleplaying skills and maturity, I'd love to meet your group. I think playing a great wyrm gold dragon in a first level party would be a very interesting and challenging roleplaying scenario, don't you agree?

I certainly don't think that one should sacrifice all elements of a game in order to foster some sort of mystical "learning experience". However, it is unwise to commit oneself to a course of action that seems free of risk out of an irrational fear. In a game based on random chance, some characters will often outshine the others. As 3E progresses through levels, much of the randomness drops away. By watching the progress of the players, a DM can bring about balance between the characters through the careful award of various in game boons, especially through the use of magic items.

Yeah, I can just see it now...
"Sorry Jim, but I get the +5 sword because you're a half dragon, and we need that to be balanced." Doing what you're doing just pushes the need for a strongarm balance somewhere else, and god forbid the party thinks "Y'know Jim, since you're the best fighter, maybe you should be using this sword", or even that Jim the half-red decides to act in character and threaten/kill to get the sword. I mean why wouldn't he, it's realistic and in-character.

Additionally, even a very powerful single character needs help when grappled by a much larger and stronger monster. One gets by with a little help from one's friends. Or so I heard from a rumour.

PS. My post has nothing to do with Nutkinland whatsoever.

So in other words, he's more powerful, so the DM has to work harder to create balanced parties and challenges that deal with an uneven power curve. Super. So while I'm enjoying the challenge of playing my great wyrm gold dragon in your first level, ECL+ 0 party, you'll have to think why that tarrasque would be hanging out with a 6 person orcish warband.