Which "phase" of D&D do you prefer?

[Nightfall]

Levels 6-10 are for wussies!

Says you!

Diaglo...a year per level?! Dude. If real life were actually like that we'd have more CEOs for starters. Secondly that's just insane! I know people that would revolt after waiting that long.

 

[der_kluge]

Diaglo, I'm curious, have you played a high level D&D game?

 

[hong]

I believe this quote sums it up best, as to why high-level D&D isn't very popular. And Hong's references to Wuxia (which I have no idea what that is), there doesn't seem to be any real basis for the kinds of power that this level of D&D represents.

Did you not notice the following bit?

Even so, it's not like characters with powers that even the gods take notice of don't exist in western legend. Hercules is the canonical example of this; in Celtic myth, you have people like Cuchulain and others. Slaine is a modern take on the latter.

Whether or not it's to their taste, people have this bizarre idea that there's no high-powered stuff in myth and legend. All this shows is their cultural solipsism.

I was joking with one of my players, and I was saying that if they made a movie out of my campaign, most people just wouldn't get it, since there'd be so many outer planar creatures,

There are tons of legends in every culture you can name, that feature demons.

so much damage reduction stuff,

You can't seriously be suggesting a game-mechanical feature is actually going to be talked up in this context. Next thing you know, you'll be complaining about how nobody understands what a +10 attack bonus is.

and so much magic,

Elaborate, please.

that people would just leave the theater utterly confused. There's no basis.

You underestimate the ability of the storyteller to set the tone of the story.

 

[Pants]

didn't martin lawrence and will smith do this in Bad Boys II?

Larger than life sucking?

Says you!

Diaglo...a year per level?! Dude. If real life were actually like that we'd have more CEOs for starters. Secondly that's just insane! I know people that would revolt after waiting that long.

Man, it'd better be a damn good campaign.

Lower level DnD (1-5) is overrated. Epic (21+) doesn't interest me. That said, everything in between is great fun, heck even 1-5 could be great fun, but I've just played so many low level quests that went absolutely nowhere that I'm just damn sick of levels 1-5. I'm running a campaign where the PC's are levels 11-14, just shy of breaching High Level and it's the first time I've ever done it. It's also the first time the players have gotten this high. It's great fun, the PC's can take on Demons, they can truly have an influence on the world around them, and they are taking at the forefront of world-shattering events.
It's bloody great fun, but I don't think it would be this fun if they didn't start out at level 1. They have watched as their characters started from lowly, inconspicuous backgrounds to become minor lords and well-known adventurers. They used to have trouble with Gnolls, and Ogres, but now they're facing down powerful Vampires, Necromancers, Glabrezu, and Kings.
Personally, even if I don't like those first 5 levels that much, every phase of D&D has it's place.

 

[der_kluge]

There are tons of legends in every culture you can name, that feature demons.

Demons sure, but my game has tons of Slaad in it. I mean, most people would understand "creatures of pure chaos", but Slaad really aren't that, anyway. They're kind of hard to define. And why do they look like toads, anyway? But it doesn't have to stop at Toads. Throw in Modrons, and it gets even more weird.

You can't seriously be suggesting a game-mechanical feature is actually going to be talked up in this context. Next thing you know, you'll be complaining about how nobody understands what a +10 attack bonus is.

There has to be some basis, if we're talking about a movie here, for why the barbarian's sword just isn't very effective against a creature with a DR 10/Law. Val Kilmer: "My sword isn't effective - cleric, can you align this to law so that I might smite my enemies?" Audiences would never buy that.

Elaborate, please.

The last combat we had in our game. 8 Slaad against the party. The levitating avatar of a dead god in Stag form is placed into a rope trick for safe-keeping. The party is all stone-skinned, and the sorcerer is blind from a previously cast detect magic (in which he detected the afore-mentioned avatar), so I blinded him. The party rogue is blinded from a nymph druid, whom she attacked, because a non-euclidian advanced phase spider caused her to go insane, and so is babbling incoherently in a pond behind the party. The slaad start out with spells like chaos hammer, and fireball, a gray paralyzes the druid with power word stun, and there were at least two dimension doors cast, once by the druid, and another by the gray.

And no, I didn't make any of that up. That's my game. That combat lasted most of the night (about 3.5 hours), and it would take a full two hour movie to set a context to just *explain* half that stuff to a movie-going audience.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

I like 6-10, as a player I've never breached 10th. I've DMed up to 36 level (Basic D&D) and 12-15th in 2ed. Though I've run more Cthulhu and Vampire than all D&D combined.

 

[hong]

Demons sure, but my game has tons of Slaad in it.

For all intents and purposes, a slaad can be considered a demon; a creature that serves as an antagonist or supreme villain. For the longest time in myth, "chaos" and "evil" were interchangeable; this can still be seen in books like the Elric series, and Three Hearts And Three Lions by Poul Anderson.

Just because D&D treats evil and chaos as distinct forces doesn't mean any given campaign has to do the same, nor does it have to give them equal time. That goes double for a movie meant for mass consumption. And in fact, your campaign featuring tons of slaad is most likely an exception; if you look at published adventures and most story hours, demons, devils and the clash of good-vs-evil tend to feature far more prominently than slaad, modrons and law-vs-chaos.

I mean, most people would understand "creatures of pure chaos", but Slaad really aren't that, anyway. They're kind of hard to define. And why do they look like toads, anyway?

Look at the picture in the 3E MM. Does that look like a toad?

But it doesn't have to stop at Toads. Throw in Modrons, and it gets even more weird.

This is silly. You seem to think that a movie must feature every monster and option that appears in the books to qualify as a D&D movie. That's ridiculous, even more so than saying that a campaign must include every monster and option to be called D&D.

A Planescape movie featuring modrons and slaad could work very well. Consider that Planescape: Torment won rave reviews from people who had no idea about D&D. That has no bearing on whether a movie set in Greyhawk or FR should include modrons and slaad.

There has to be some basis, if we're talking about a movie here, for why the barbarian's sword just isn't very effective against a creature with a DR 10/Law. Val Kilmer: "My sword isn't effective - cleric, can you align this to law so that I might smite my enemies?" Audiences would never buy that.

Oh, for chrissakes. Holy swords with great power over the wicked are all over the place in myth, legend, folktales and whatever, and the the exact mechanic that D&D uses to represent this is entirely beside the point. This is known as "grasping at straws".

The last combat we had in our game. 8 Slaad against the party. The levitating avatar of a dead god in Stag form is placed into a rope trick for safe-keeping. The party is all stone-skinned, and the sorcerer is blind from a previously cast detect magic (in which he detected the afore-mentioned avatar), so I blinded him. The party rogue is blinded from a nymph druid, whom she attacked, because a non-euclidian advanced phase spider caused her to go insane, and so is babbling incoherently in a pond behind the party. The slaad start out with spells like chaos hammer, and fireball, a gray paralyzes the druid with power word stun, and there were at least two dimension doors cast, once by the druid, and another by the gray.

The slaad had lots of spectacular boom spells. The party had the power of the divine to protect them. What's the problem? The D&D geeks can entertain themselves for hours trying to identify each individual spell and effect. Everyone else will just lap up the explosions and gore.

And no, I didn't make any of that up. That's my game. That combat lasted most of the night (about 3.5 hours), and it would take a full two hour movie to set a context to just *explain* half that stuff to a movie-going audience.

If you're making a D&D movie, you're not there to explain the rules to the audience. You're there to _tell a story_, one that features lots of spectacular special effects along the way. If people were willing to buy the pseudointellectual waffle of The Matrix, as long as they got lots of competently done gun-fu, you can bet they'll be willing to buy D&D-related waffle as long as they get lots of competently done spell-fu and sword-fu. Note the "competently done" disclaimer, to exclude tripe like the actual D&D movie.

 

[Darklone]

If you're making a D&D movie, you're not there to explain the rules to the audience. You're there to _tell a story_, one that features lots of spectacular special effects along the way. If people were willing to buy the pseudointellectual waffle of The Matrix, as long as they got lots of competently done gun-fu, you can bet they'll be willing to buy D&D-related waffle as long as they get lots of competently done spell-fu and sword-fu. Note the "competently done" disclaimer, to exclude tripe like the actual D&D movie.

Ooooooh, D&D movie. Heroic Fantasy with lotsa magic items, nice RPing shown about the different scroll/wand/potions stuff, magic items, talking doors, lotsa colours, big hero, cuddly gnomes, beautiful women, stylish villains, swordfights that show 4+ attacks per round, disarms, trips, bull rushes, trolls, dragons, racial diversity and above all:

20 D&D ruleslawyers for the action and 20 D&D DMs for the story.

 

[hong]

Ooooooh, D&D movie. Heroic Fantasy with lotsa magic items, nice RPing shown about the different scroll/wand/potions stuff, magic items, talking doors, lotsa colours, big hero, cuddly gnomes, beautiful women, stylish villains, swordfights that show 4+ attacks per round, disarms, trips, bull rushes, trolls, dragons, racial diversity and above all:

20 D&D ruleslawyers for the action and 20 D&D DMs for the story.

Goddammit, everyone thinks they're a troll these days.


Hong "the original" Ooi

 

[Tsyr]

Once again, I am so very, very glad I do not game with you Diaglo...