Who Makes WotC's Adventures?

There are now three large hardcover adventures for D&D 5th Edition. There's the two-part Tyranny of Dragons campaign produced by Kobold Press; there's Princes of the Apocalypse, from Sasquatch Game Studios; and there's the imminent Out of the Abyss, from Green Ronin publishing. All of these are official, hardcover adventures produced for WotC by third party companies. But how does that actually work? What is the relationship between the company producing the products and the company publishing them? WotC's Jeremy Crawford told me yesterday that the term "outsourcing" is innacurate when it comes to describing this arrangement.

There are now three large hardcover adventures for D&D 5th Edition. There's the two-part Tyranny of Dragons campaign produced by Kobold Press; there's Princes of the Apocalypse, from Sasquatch Game Studios; and there's the imminent Out of the Abyss, from Green Ronin publishing. All of these are official, hardcover adventures produced for WotC by third party companies. But how does that actually work? What is the relationship between the company producing the products and the company publishing them? WotC's Jeremy Crawford told me yesterday that the term "outsourcing" is innacurate when it comes to describing this arrangement.

outoftheabyss.jpg


If we go back a bit to when I asked Kobold Press' Wolfgang Baur about the process, he told me that "the 5E adventures are produced as a combination of studio work and WotC oversight." He went on to describe it in a little more detail, highlighting a to-and-fro between the companies -- "we'd do some portion of the work, then we would get feedback from WotC on Realmslore, or story beats, or mechanics. Then we did more of the design, and got feedback from swarms of playtesters. Then we turned over another version for feedback on the art and layout. And so forth. It was iterative..." So collaboration clearly takes place all the way through the process.

He describes Kobold Press role as "the heavy lifting in design, development, and editing" with WotC having "crucial input and set the direction for what they wanted".

Moving ahead to now, WotC Jeremy Crawford observes that "It's bizarre to see a few posters on ENWorld mistake our [D&D 5E] collaborations as outsourcing. Each book has been a team effort." The input from WotC isn't just greenlighting the book at various stages; as Jeremy tells us "Our reviews are deep. We create the story & the concept art. We write portions of the books. We design mechanics. Etc.!" As he also points out, the credits page of each book tells us who contributed to each.

So there we have it. These books aren't outsourced to third parties in any traditional sense of that word; the books are written as a collaborative effort with writing and more done by both companies.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Just found this thread Mistwell your posts on the WotC site makes a bit more sense. Not all of us are from the USA and here if a company gets a product made by another company and you used the word out sourcing it would be understood what you meant. You could also call it sub contracting or whatever. Some words mean slightly different things here (hotdog, jelly, jam, donuts being examples). Outsourcing is not as negative here I suppose as made in China does have some negative connotations i regards to quality but so does made in the USA when applied to cars for example or 5E PHB falling apart as it turns out.

TSR used freelancers it has been around for decades but I suppose its the scale of it. Hiring an individual= freelancing, hiring a company= outsourcings/sub contracting or whatever you want to call it. The reason Paizo gets away with it I suspect is because they didn't spend several years purging their staff to a minimal amout with annual lay offs. Paizo may have more good will I suppose even from people who do not buy their products. The perception would be (IMHO of course) if 5E is doing that well why doesn't WoTC just hire some of its ex staff back? I know there are probably financial considerations but if they do not want to pay wages (and benefits I suppose) even that will leave a negative impression.

In other countries you do not have to worry about things like health benefits as you are already covered by ACC or the general tax intake via national healthcare. Its legal for US corporations to act that way, doesn't mean you have to like it. If 5E is doing that well hire more staff and produce it in house, if they can't or won't there is your problem. I don't think people care about freelancing but when you freelance/out source/subcontract (pick your term) everything after the initial products it seems it may not leave a good impression for whatever those reasons are.

You spend your first paragraph claiming there is no negative connotation to outsourcing.

You spend your second and third paragraphs outlining negative connotations to outsourcing.

Who you trying to kid? Everything you just wrote spins things in the most negative manner possible for WOTC, sometimes in contradictory manner. You justify Paizo outsourcing their artwork to a Chinese company and then bash WOTC for outsourcing to U.S. companies, and claim it's OK to bash WOTC because they also do layoffs - as if hiring people and laying them off is worse than never hiring people to begin with and always sending the work to China.

Sorry Zard, I am not buying it. WOTC hasn't done anything to justify treating them harsher than Paizo on this topic. Both companies have always "outsourced". WOTC is arguably doing it LESS right now given how deeply connected their in-house staff is to the current work being done even if another company is involved, while Paizo was issuing press releases about sending work to China. And yet the later never, ever got a single negative comment over it. That sure looks like a double standard to me. Can you imagine the backlash against WOTC if they had issued a press release about how great it is for them to be sending artwork for the core books (and that's what it was about - Pathfinder core books) to a Chinese outsourcing company?
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Can you imagine the backlash against WOTC if they had issued a press release about how great it is for them to be sending artwork for the core books (and that's what it was about - Pathfinder core books) to a Chinese outsourcing company?

I dunno about China, but most art from both companies is done by freelancers. One of them is our Brazilian friend Claudio Pozas. I just posted a new item today about Paizo's Hells Rebels art and the freelance artists they used; Wayne Reynolds was one, and awesome it is.

Hell, I outsource stuff to Americans all the time!
 

Zardnaar

Legend
You spend your first paragraph claiming there is no negative connotation to outsourcing.

You spend your second and third paragraphs outlining negative connotations to outsourcing.

Who you trying to kid? Everything you just wrote spins things in the most negative manner possible for WOTC, sometimes in contradictory manner. You justify Paizo outsourcing their artwork to a Chinese company and then bash WOTC for outsourcing to U.S. companies, and claim it's OK to bash WOTC because they also do layoffs - as if hiring people and laying them off is worse than never hiring people to begin with and always sending the work to China.

Sorry Zard, I am not buying it. WOTC hasn't done anything to justify treating them harsher than Paizo on this topic. Both companies have always "outsourced". WOTC is arguably doing it LESS right now given how deeply connected their in-house staff is to the current work being done even if another company is involved, while Paizo was issuing press releases about sending work to China. And yet the later never, ever got a single negative comment over it. That sure looks like a double standard to me. Can you imagine the backlash against WOTC if they had issued a press release about how great it is for them to be sending artwork for the core books (and that's what it was about - Pathfinder core books) to a Chinese outsourcing company?

Are the Chinese developing the Paizo content or is it just made in China?

I'm not an American so I don't care if an RPG product is made in America or China. I don't think I have ever justified Paizo for anything lol so try and stop putting words in my mouth. All I am saying that in the context of outsourcing what WoTC is doing would count IMHO, same with Paizo. I don't care that much if they do it but no one is flipping out if I claim Paizo is outsourcing.

Also WoTC has a variety of self inflicted body blows maybe Paizo has more good will towards it. Shock horror the RPG community might just like Paizo better IDK.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I dunno about China, but most art from both companies is done by freelancers. One of them is our Brazilian friend Claudio Pozas. I just posted a new item today about Paizo's Hells Rebels art and the freelance artists they used; Wayne Reynolds was one, and awesome it is.

Hell, I outsource stuff to Americans all the time!

He's making a distinction (one I do not agree with) between outsourced "companies" and freelance "individuals". The Paizo press release was about a company - a company where all they do is outsource artwork to a Hong Kong studio of artists in what looks to be a revolving pool. The press release even makes it clear that while sometimes they "go to specific artists to get illustrations for Pathfinder products," but in this case they "work with several studios of artists," with this being just one of those studios of artists.

I don't have an issue with that. I just think if a person does have an issue with WOTC "outsourcing" to Green Ronin (for example) then whatever standard is involved with judging them for "outsourcing" should have also been directed at Paizo for what they were and are doing with press releases like that one about the various overseas art studios they use. And if people find a way to give Paizo a pass for that but blame WOTC for it, then it's a double standard, and fair to call people on such a double standard.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I never claimed Paizo was not outsourcing so I don't see how it is a double standard. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Are the Chinese developing the Paizo content or is it just made in China?

It's artwork. They created and made the art. They give you two examples

http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9010-StormRoc.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9010-ThousandBones.jpg

I'm not an American so I don't care if an RPG product is made in America or China. I don't think I have ever justified Paizo for anything lol so try and stop putting words in my mouth.

OK then if you explaining how WOTC laying off people is relevant, and how using outsourcing for everything after the core books is relevant, isn't your attempt to justify a bash on WOTC in distinction from Paizo...then what is it? What is the purpose of those paragraphs if it's not to justify a distinction? You compared and contrasted the two companies. Why else were you doing that?

Also WoTC has a variety of self inflicted body blows maybe Paizo has more good will towards it.

There it is again - how is that not you justifying treating them differently?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
It's artwork. They created and made the art. They give you two examples

http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9010-StormRoc.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9010-ThousandBones.jpg



OK then if you explaining how WOTC laying off people is relevant, and how using outsourcing for everything after the core books is relevant, isn't your attempt to justify a bash on WOTC in distinction from Paizo...then what is it? What is the purpose of those paragraphs if it's not to justify a distinction? You compared and contrasted the two companies. Why else were you doing that?



There it is again - how is that not you justifying treating them differently?


Its not, it is an explanation perhaps as IDK all the answers. AFAIK you Americans have something called free speech but Morrus is British so go and complain to him I suppose. He might listen. Last I looked it was not illegal regardless of the reasons to criticise WoTC for whatever reason one likes.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Last I looked it was not illegal regardless of the reasons to criticise WoTC for whatever reason one likes.

Are you confusing disagreement with criminal prosecution?

I promise you that nobody here is attempting to arrest you.
 



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