D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[pemerton]

I'm jumping back in to clear something up:

Cantrip Versatility is one of a series of retraining rules that is intended to solve the problem of people not having a by-the-book rule for fixing mistakes or unsatisfactory choices made when they created or leveled up their character.

Yes. That's clear and understood.

@Ashrym's poin (as I read it), and Crawford's point as quoted/transcribed upthread, is that for sorcerers the retraining option was always an intended part of the class, and the spell versatility feature "fixes" it for slow-levelling campaigns where the retraining isn't occurring at the design-inteded real-world rate.

Whereas cantrip versatility is not a fix to an original design feature. It's a somewhat ad ho addition. Which means that it is hardly vulnerable to the criticism that it doesn't work at the intended real-world pace!

 

[Ashrym]

What DC increase?

The standard DC increases from leveling up. 8 + proficiency bonus + ability modifier. Spell DC's start at 13 and end at 19, typically.

Tasha's is better with a DC 19 than 13 while still first level. Blindness is better with a higher DC regardless and scales multiple targets so worth bumping up a slot or two.

I'm not sure why that came into question.

 

[Mistwell]

The standard DC increases from leveling up. 8 + proficiency bonus + ability modifier. Spell DC's start at 13 and end at 19, typically.

Tasha's is better with a DC 19 than 13 while still first level. Blindness is better with a higher DC regardless and scales multiple targets so worth bumping up a slot or two.

I'm not sure why that came into question.

Ah OK fair enough I thought you were saying the DC went up with upscaling and was confused.

I do wish there was a Spell Focus feat to increase your DC, or at least in a particular school of magic.

 

[pemerton]

Upscaling is usually option "B" for classes that are tighter on spells available to cast. Knowing which spells to cover various goals when a character has fewer options is a system mastery issue.

It seems slightly weird that playing an innate/intutitive caseter (sorcerer) requires this sort of system mastery. Whereas playing the hyper-analytic wizard can be approached in a more relaxed fashion (because you get to change spells per long rest, add new spells with level, scribe new spells, etc).

Odd.

 

[Ashrym]

It seems slightly weird that playing an innate/intutitive caseter (sorcerer) requires this sort of system mastery. Whereas playing the hyper-analytic wizard can be approached in a more relaxed fashion (because you get to change spells per long rest, add new spells with level, scribe new spells, etc).

Odd.

If I were to hazard a guess that might have something to do with their expectations on how often spells get swapped. The system mastery is the player, not the sorcerer though. Separate peeps.

 

[pemerton]

The system mastery is the player, not the sorcerer though. Separate peeps.

I think it's a virtue of a RPG that playing it makes my experiences similar to those of my character. Rather than contrary to it!

 

[FrogReaver]

It seems slightly weird that playing an innate/intutitive caseter (sorcerer) requires this sort of system mastery. Whereas playing the hyper-analytic wizard can be approached in a more relaxed fashion (because you get to change spells per long rest, add new spells with level, scribe new spells, etc).

Odd.

Wrong perspective IMO. Wizards are the studied I know nearly all spells guy. Sorcerers are the unstudied I have raw magical power guy. The wizard having more spells is a given. The sorcerer being able to enhance his spells is thematically fitting.

In fact viewed in that perspective, it makes perfect sense that the sorcerer would be harder to optimize spell selection for. Because they have less overall spell options then carefully selecting spells becomes more important to overall character optimization.

That said, sorcerers feel more about fitting a fairly narrow theme and providing the power for that narrow theme to be stronger than any other caster at it - that is the character optimization minigame is at odds with their theme. That's not the case with the wizard and that's part of what makes the wizard feel better overall than the sorcerer.

Trying to fix this issue by giving the sorcerer more spells, or more spell retraining doesn't really thematically work IMO. It's essentially removing what the sorcerer is supposed to be. IMO

 

[FrogReaver]

I think it's a virtue of a RPG that playing it makes my experiences similar to those of my character. Rather than contrary to it!

I don't think so. Especially not from the perspective of the level up minigame. Sorcerers in the game play just like a sorcerer should. The issue you are talking about happens at level up.

 

[pemerton]

Wrong perspective IMO.

<snip>

it makes perfect sense that the sorcerer would be harder to optimize spell selection for. Because they have less overall spell options then carefully selecting spells becomes more important to overall character optimization.

That said, sorcerers feel more about fitting a fairly narrow theme and providing the power for that narrow theme to be stronger than any other caster at it - that is the character optimization minigame is at odds with their theme. That's not the case with the wizard and that's part of what makes the wizard feel better overall than the sorcerer.

I don't think so. Especially not from the perspective of the level up minigame. Sorcerers in the game play just like a sorcerer should. The issue you are talking about happens at level up.

Even though you say you're disagreeing with me, you seem to be accepting the point that there is a tension between what sorcerers are meant to be and how they actually work. That is is a level-up thing rather than an encounter thing doesn't seem (to me) to undermine the point.

Trying to fix this issue by giving the sorcerer more spells, or more spell retraining doesn't really thematically work IMO.

I don't see how there can be a fix within the mechanical framework and conceits of 5e.

 

[tetrasodium]

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