Depends mostly on DM preferences as illustrated by the almost 100 page discussion on this forum. I am not getting into any discussion about right or wrong here, just stating that if hiding and re-hiding is allowed the ranged rogue more or less catches up with melee rogues in combat efficiency.
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D&D 5E Why Good Rogues Should Not Use a Bow
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Depends mostly on DM preferences as illustrated by the almost 100 page discussion on this forum. I am not getting into any discussion about right or wrong here, just stating that if hiding and re-hiding is allowed the ranged rogue more or less catches up with melee rogues in combat efficiency.
My rogue's combat role is:
1) Scout ahead
2) Find enemy
3) Shoot one said enemy for free crit (Assassin)
4) Flee (enemies will usually pursue)
5) Lead them back to allies to ambush
I usually stay in ranged combat after that (yes, our DM is one of the 'generous' ones who allows hiding in combat - we like the cinematic feel of it). If the group is small I may go more melee - especially if we have a squishy caster and especially after I get Uncanny Dodge.
As a bonus, if they pursue and I lose them I occasionally can try to Assassinate again - not usually a good idea if there are other reinforcements nearby they can call in but sometimes.
1) Scout ahead
2) Find enemy
3) Shoot one said enemy for free crit (Assassin)
4) Flee (enemies will usually pursue)
5) Lead them back to allies to ambush
I usually stay in ranged combat after that (yes, our DM is one of the 'generous' ones who allows hiding in combat - we like the cinematic feel of it). If the group is small I may go more melee - especially if we have a squishy caster and especially after I get Uncanny Dodge.
As a bonus, if they pursue and I lose them I occasionally can try to Assassinate again - not usually a good idea if there are other reinforcements nearby they can call in but sometimes.
Zardnaar
Legend
Swashbuckler is not final yet and I think there are various ways to build Rogues depending on subclass. Thief+healer feat for example. Or you can add a fighter level, go strength based and wear heavy armor with a shied and shield master feat w/expertise in athletics. Mastermind using the bonus action to grant advantage with greenflame blade also works.
And that is before I consider a splash level or MC out into fighter or Ranger after level 8. fighter level can dual wield, use a sword+board, get +2 damage and +2 AC, Rogue/Ranger can also do various things.
None of them involve defaulting to a bow.
"Swashbuckler is not final yet"
What is this I don't even?
As an aside, of course none of the melee focused builds you're looking out default to a bow. Because they're melee focused.
Except one. Which should default to a ranged weapon. Fighter 1/Rogue X. You go on and on (rightly so) about how accuracy is important. Archery. +2 accuracy always on. Much better than your dual wield/sword n board proposal. Dual Wield gets more AC? Ranged doesn't get hit as much. Dual Wield gets more damage on attacks? Ranged doesn't have to worry (as much) about being in a position to be able to attack.
What is this I don't even?
As an aside, of course none of the melee focused builds you're looking out default to a bow. Because they're melee focused.
Except one. Which should default to a ranged weapon. Fighter 1/Rogue X. You go on and on (rightly so) about how accuracy is important. Archery. +2 accuracy always on. Much better than your dual wield/sword n board proposal. Dual Wield gets more AC? Ranged doesn't get hit as much. Dual Wield gets more damage on attacks? Ranged doesn't have to worry (as much) about being in a position to be able to attack.
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Bitbrain
Lost in Dark Sun
^This is exactly how the main DM for my group does combat.
In the first round of combat, the monsters go for whoever is closest to them.
In the second round however, the DM has figured out which ones of us have the lowest armor class and has the monsters focus their attacks on those PCs while having the hostiles shout scary things like "kill the warlock and rogue!"
The end result is that the monsters break through the front ranks, and everything descends into a desperate battle where most everyone else in the party other than myself is forced to fight in melee (the other players won't let my character fight in melee, as my sorcerer is basically a glass cannon, plus I have misty step as one of my spells).
At the end of most combat encounters, the warlock is making death saves and the rogue isn't too far behind.
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Chaosmancer
Legend
I'm trying to figure out how this works.
The difference between Rapier and a Crossbow depends on a few things.
You can't dual-wield a Rapier and a shortsword (Dual with no feats requires both weapons be light). So, ignoring feat selection it is a d8 sword vs a d10 heavy crossbow.
Otherwise it is shortswords, which are d6's, and do not get the mod damage to the off-hand.
Let's say you grab Dual-Wielding, You've d8's off-hand doesn't get mod damage, but hey, +1 AC is cool.
Crossbow guy can grab sharp-shooter, or crossbow expert and switch to hand crossbows for two attacks, both with mod.
Dual-wielding is done now with it's path, unless you multi-class, and the Crossbow rogue can also multi-class for improved accuracy and can still take the other feat he didn't grab.
Honestly, unless you're playing with the optional flanking rules I don't see how the ranged rogue falls far behind, especially since the sneak attack stays the same and is probably the majority of the rogue's damage anyways. Both of them are getting +3d6 damage and the difference between their weapons is relatively minor as far as I can tell. Maybe 1 or 2 points of damage on average
Zardnaar
Legend
That is the UA one or is it the SCAG one?
If its the SCAG one I got it confused with some of the UA stuff.
Satyrn
First Post
Oh sweet! I'm playing the best rogue ever - a swashbuckling, dual wielding single-classed battlemaster.
(With the criminal (smuggler) background for the thieving proficiencies and Han Solo panache.)
I have yet to find a rogue who doesn't get into melee. At low levels, at least, the lure of TWF and landing the Sneak Attack is too high despite an AC of 14 (low compared to some builds with heavy armor)
Comparing, at 1st level, a rogue with 16 DEX, 14 CON, leather vs. a weak creature with a measly +3 to hit.
1. The rogue has 10 HP.
2. His AC is 14.
3. The creature hits 50% of the time (11+).
4. A short rest will heal an average of 6.5 HP (1d8 + 2)
5. The Rogue's effective HP is 33 (10 + 6.5 )/50%
Comparing a 1st level fighter also with 14 CON, mail, shield vs. the same creature with +3 to hit.
1. The fighter has 12 HP.
2. His AC is 18
3. The creature hits 30% of the time.
4. A short rest heals an average of 7.5 HP (1d10 + 2)
5. Second Wind heals an average of 6.5 HP (1d10 + 1)
6. The Fighter's effective HP are 86.7 (12 + 7.5 + 6.5)/30%
So even though I haven't seen rogues shy away from melee combat, fighters have a LOT more effective HP than a rogue (or really anyone else) at first level.
I disagree with the premise that rogues don't mix it up in melee. But they are very squishy even if getting into melee is, IMO, a better plan than hanging back at range. Though it often doesn't last long with their low effective HP.
Comparing, at 1st level, a rogue with 16 DEX, 14 CON, leather vs. a weak creature with a measly +3 to hit.
1. The rogue has 10 HP.
2. His AC is 14.
3. The creature hits 50% of the time (11+).
4. A short rest will heal an average of 6.5 HP (1d8 + 2)
5. The Rogue's effective HP is 33 (10 + 6.5 )/50%
Comparing a 1st level fighter also with 14 CON, mail, shield vs. the same creature with +3 to hit.
1. The fighter has 12 HP.
2. His AC is 18
3. The creature hits 30% of the time.
4. A short rest heals an average of 7.5 HP (1d10 + 2)
5. Second Wind heals an average of 6.5 HP (1d10 + 1)
6. The Fighter's effective HP are 86.7 (12 + 7.5 + 6.5)/30%
So even though I haven't seen rogues shy away from melee combat, fighters have a LOT more effective HP than a rogue (or really anyone else) at first level.
I disagree with the premise that rogues don't mix it up in melee. But they are very squishy even if getting into melee is, IMO, a better plan than hanging back at range. Though it often doesn't last long with their low effective HP.
