why play a evoker since complete arcane?

[Wolf72]

conjuration spells that do damage (fire, acid, electricity ...etc) bypass SR???

is this a new 3.5 rule? ... if it's 3.0 I definitely didn't read it and when under the assumption that if directly affects a target then SR applies ... if I cast lightning bolt to bring down a column and that column falls down and hits the target: fine. If I cast Melf's acid arrow (used to be conjuration) then SR applies as it directly affects a target.

... okie dokie ... Wolf is getting a little gray around the muzzle. I just checked the SRD and lots of conjuration spells don't allow SR ... very cool.

 

[Thanee]

I beleive that they are not as good as evocation spells in that they only affect a single target.

There are also area effect conjuration spells, but those are usually cones, IIRC, at least I cannot think of any that is not a cone.

Altho, there seems to be at least one 10 ft. burst in CA.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

conjuration spells that do damage (fire, acid, electricity ...etc) bypass SR???

is this a new 3.5 rule? ... if it's 3.0 I definitely didn't read it and when under the assumption that if directly affects a target then SR applies ...

It's not a "RULE" in any way.

It just happens that every Conjuration spells in 3.5 have a Spell Resistance: NO entry

 

[Lodow MoBo]

The whole reason that SR does not apply is because these are real effects summoned from another plane. An evocation effect is an energy type created by magic

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Two comments on this:

1. Range is only very rarely an issue in the games I've played. It makes a difference for battlefield encounters with thousands of troops but the typical dungeon crawl, roadside ambush (in a wilderness mod), or alley brawl (in a city mod) are at close quarters from the surprise round on.

2. What you're saying is true of magic in general. Taking evocation, for instance:

Burning Hands (15 cone)
Magic Missile: medium range
Scorching Ray: Close range
Fireball: long range
Lightning bolt: fixed range between short and medium
Cone of Cold: Short cone
Wall of Force: Close Range
Etc.

Of those, only Fireball is long range.

Going to PHB conjuration spells, acid arrow is long range (OK, it sucks but it's long range), glitterdust and web are medium range.

IME, Range is a marginal consideration to begin with and it's certainly not clear that it evocation is superior to conjuration in that regard.

If only...

Range, my dear chap. The damaging conjuration spells in CA are almost uniformly of short range.

1st level: 5 Lesser Orbs - Short range, 1 target, ranged touch attack, no SR
4th level: 6 Orbs - Short range, 1 target, ranged touch attack, no SR
4th level: Blast of Flame - 60' cone, Ref half, no SR (max 10d6)
5th level: Arc of Lightning - Short range, line between 2 creatures, Ref half, no SR (max 15d6)
5th level: Vitriolic Sphere - Long range, 10' burst, Reflex negates, no SR

That's it. The only long range spell has a Reflex negation save.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Would you agree that Fireball is the king of damage spells?

The conjuration damage spells in Complete Arcane are characterised by
* No SR
* Target might avoid all damage altogether (Ranged Touch attack or Reflex avoids)
* Short range

Short Range + Ranged Attack roll is a big deal. Most wizards will not have Precise Shot, and so that's normally a +8 to the AC of the opponent (Cover + In Melee). Medium range touch attacks have the possibility of working before melee begins - when your attack is only at short range... eek.

At 10th level, your average Wizard (14 Dex) has a +7 to hit with the Orb of Acid. The Troll - in melee - has an effective AC of 19. That's a 55% chance of the spell not working at all.

Cheers!

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Speaking of them, am I the only one who finds it utterly stupid to have power word, blind of a lower level than power word, stun? A permanent physical cripple being lower level than a temporary mental condition that, in the worst case, do not last even 2 minutes. PWB can even affect more hit points than PWS!

Well, from a combat effectiveness standpoint, being stunned is far worse than being blinded, so far as mechanics go.

If you're blinded, you can still act, meaning you can fight back to some degree, or activate an item to escape. With stun, you can't do a damn thing but stand there and be pummeled for 1d4 rounds.

So yes, while in the real world it would be far worse to be blinded than stunned, in game terms it doesn't usually work out that way.

Patrick Y.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

No I wouldn't. These days, I'd say that, past clvl 7, Scorching Ray is probably the king of damage spells and Icy Burst is the king of area effect damage spells. (Maybe I'm undervaluing range here but I think area is more significant. As I said before, I've only seen a few combats in the last year of playing D&D where range was a significant issue and since some of the best non damaging conjuration spells (glitterdust, web, etc) have more than close range, it's not like all of the CA conjurer's spells are short range--just all of his worthwhile (and that excludes acid arrow) direct damage attack spells).

In general I also find that ranged touch attacks are better than saving throws (even for half) too. Then again, I'm a huge fan of point blank and precise shot for wizards. Even without Point Blank Shot, the wizard has a 65% chance of dealing full damage if he just moves to a point where there's no cover between him and the troll. With precise shot and in point blank range, that's a 90% chance. Compare that to the chance of the troll failing the saving throw (assuming a 21 int and greater spell focus, there's still something like a 25% chance of the troll saving).

In any event, not allowing SR is a HUGE advantage. SR will typically knock a spell down to 60-70% effectiveness before any saves or touch attacks are even considered. What's more, CA spells come in all varieties, while (absent feats), evocation damage is pretty much exclusively fire, electricity, and cold with a few decidedly substandard sonic spells. The ability to prep a force orb or a sonic orb is a massive advantage.

Would you agree that Fireball is the king of damage spells?

The conjuration damage spells in Complete Arcane are characterised by
* No SR
* Target might avoid all damage altogether (Ranged Touch attack or Reflex avoids)
* Short range

Short Range + Ranged Attack roll is a big deal. Most wizards will not have Precise Shot, and so that's normally a +8 to the AC of the opponent (Cover + In Melee). Medium range touch attacks have the possibility of working before melee begins - when your attack is only at short range... eek.

At 10th level, your average Wizard (14 Dex) has a +7 to hit with the Orb of Acid. The Troll - in melee - has an effective AC of 19. That's a 55% chance of the spell not working at all.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

No I wouldn't. These days, I'd say that, past clvl 7, Scorching Ray is probably the king of damage spells and Icy Burst is the king of area effect damage spells. (Maybe I'm undervaluing range here but I think area is more significant. As I said before, I've only seen a few combats in the last year of playing D&D where range was a significant issue and since some of the best non damaging conjuration spells (glitterdust, web, etc) have more than close range, it's not like all of the CA conjurer's spells are short range--just all of his worthwhile (and that excludes acid arrow) direct damage attack spells).

Where is Ice Burst in 3.5e? (I know it was first in T&B, but it isn't in CA).

The great thing about Fireball is that it works even if the opponent saves. (Rogues notwithstanding, since you can't hit them with Ranged Touch anyway... )

That said, there are some evocation spells with serious issues - Polar ray, anyone?

Cheers!

 

[Thanee]

Fire Brand beats all of those easily.

Besides, I've noticed, that Fireball is usually better than Scorching Ray as soon as you can hit two targets with it.

Bye
Thanee