D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[GMforPowergamers]

This obviously changed with the specific group. When we played the "accepted" model was a bit like the "stable" system several folks used way back for D&D play; every player had one wizard, one companion and a few grogs in the campaign, but you only played one of them (or the "squad" of grogs) at any one time. Play tended to proceed in "missions" (or "quests" or "situations"...) and you took what seemed the most appropriate of your characters for the specific task at hand. Often the beginning of the "mission" took the form of everyone playing their wizard, discussing and deciding what to do - thus, each player could make the case for their wizard or their companion going along. Since wizards tended to have "downtime" stuff to do that was at least as valuable as "adventuring" it generally worked out well, since not everyone wanted their magus to be out of the lab for several days.

To be honest, I don't remember where we picked up this method of play - whether it was something in the rulebook current at that time (AM rivals D&D for number of "editions", although they are all very similar in actual rules), or whether it was something we picked up from other games and general "buzz".

Sounds like the old grey hawk stories

 

[Sage Genesis]

A solution requiring Magic Walmart is not a solution, IMHO. It is the #1 thing I do not miss from 3.5.

It's kind of funny, isn't it? In these kinds of discussions when a Rogue's disadvantages are brought up against undead and whatnot, people say you should buy potions, wands, scrolls, and all that jazz. But when you say you'd like to play a Rogue stocked up on magic items, people say the magic item shop is badwrong and the wealth by level guidelines should prevent you from getting all you need.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's kind of funny, isn't it? In these kinds of discussions when a Rogue's disadvantages are brought up against undead and whatnot, people say you should buy potions, wands, scrolls, and all that jazz. But when you say you'd like to play a Rogue stocked up on magic items, people say the magic item shop is badwrong and the wealth by level guidelines should prevent you from getting all you need.

I love that rouge with scrolls and wands and a % chance to make them is seen as a great idea but that wizard can use the same one 100% of the time

 

[Derren]

I love that rouge with scrolls and wands and a % chance to make them is seen as a great idea but that wizard can use the same one 100% of the time

Please show me the wizard using that divine scroll....
And 2 spells a round are better than one.


What I would like to kow is what the people who demand combat balance consider effective. How many dice must you throw so that you have fun during combat?

 

[Zardnaar]

DP nevermind.

 

[Zardnaar]

Player entitlement seems massive these days. We went from Pathfinder back to OSR type games.

No magic weapon to hit XYZ creature= tough luck. Fighter is a bit useless.
Thieves can only back stab living creaures
Magic resistance and antimagic hose wizards.

The game is actually kind of fun again and no magic mart. The I must deal damage every round mentality is ruining D&D and is bad wrong fun IMHO. If the game is turning into a DPR calculation you are doing it wrong.

 

[Halivar]

What I would like to kow is what the people who demand combat balance consider effective. How many dice must you throw so that you have fun during combat?

Defining a rogue's combat efficacy solely in terms of +xd6 is not a choice I made, or would have made.

No magic weapon to hit XYZ creature= tough luck. Fighter is a bit useless.

Requiring a +1 may not be onerous at high levels, but even without a Magic Walmart a fighter can still bull-rush, trip, etc. Note that this is more problematic for characters that don't have 1/1 BAB and can't take the to-hit penalty.

Thieves can only back stab living creaures

We can go on about this forever. In fact, we have. Our divergence of opinion might stem from the fact that I would never call it "back stab".

Magic resistance and antimagic hose wizards.

Magic resistance can be overcome; the wizard has a sporting chance. Antimagic is tough, but can be treated like a terrain feature, usually, so the wizard may have options. Antimagic on a whole room, with no way to overcome, escape, or at least beat in initiative is cheap and uninteresting.

The game is actually kind of fun again and no magic mart. The I must deal damage every round mentality is ruining D&D and is bad wrong fun IMHO. If the game is turning into a DPR calculation you are doing it wrong.

If a fighter can't do damage, it's no sweat; take an attack bonus penalty and do some battlefield management. Rogues do not have that option because those options require full BAB progression and one hell of a Str bonus. Therefore their only option is more damage, all the time. Not my choice for class design.

 

[Sage Genesis]

If the game is turning into a DPR calculation you are doing it wrong.

I don't see anybody here saying the game should be turned into a DPR calculation. In fact, I've seen quite a few people say explicitly the opposite. And given that 4e (that oh so infamous nasty piece of balanced disaster that it was) didn't even use DPR as a metric for balance, well, this strikes me as a strawman.


But let's say there really is a group out there that uses DPR as the main metric for fun in their games. So what? Who are we to tell them they are "doing it wrong"? Since when is our hobby of imagination and heroes so full of people who want to tell others how they should have fun instead? What's even the point?

 

[jasper]

Hmm I think, it is the shift from the pc are members working as a team vs the monsters. To the pc vs the monster. What was that cartoon, "It is an undead!" the group tosses the cleric at it. "You kill it"
Today it seems to be "It is undead! I call dibs!"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What I would like to kow is what the people who demand combat balance consider effective. How many dice must you throw so that you have fun during combat?

I will take 0 dice and 3-4 cool effects or an equal chance to hit and damage to everyone else or
A cool backstabbing/sneak attacking Yahtzee cup but once or twice per fight


What I don't want is one trick (extra d6) only usable sometimes