D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[GMforPowergamers]

According to this logic the president of the US is the greatest, most powerful warrior on earth because he can push a red button.

um if he also picks up guns from super advance alien techno guys and shoots them, or akido flips train military men.. or

you know what screw it... then is a suicide bomber who steals a bomb from a military base then runs it into a school yard a combatant? I say yes...

The doctor does fight... he also directs others to fight he also kills it is a joke to say other wise...




now try this example: 2e wizard

starting spell book: identify, detect magic, and Jump
2nd level gain Armor and cantrip
3rd level gain protection from evil and levitate
4th level gain know alignment and a homebrew spell
5th level gain hast and slow
6th level gain dispel magic and fly

no damage... no combat... well hast/slow in 5th

 

[Marshall]

Sleep and paralysis are types of damage?

I am still waiting on your reply to my question about why you keep telling people who disagree with you that they must not have much experience playing D&D/RPGs.

Hey, I fell for it to... He's just so wrong and its so easy to prove it that tossing the food in the cage is too tempting....

 

[Dausuul]

You really need to watch some Doctor Who...

The Doctor is the science fiction equivalent of 3E's Batman wizard. He favors battlefield control and debuffs (usually disabling the enemy's technology), and utility magic lets him bypass a lot of encounters altogether. When he needs something damaged, he tells somebody with a gun to go shoot it. If it's hard to shoot, he buffs the gun first.

All that said, he does seem to be a fairly effective fighter when he chooses to be. See for example his duel with the Sycorax leader in "The Christmas Invasion."

 

[Marshall]

now try this example: 2e wizard

starting spell book: identify, detect magic, and Jump
2nd level gain Armor and cantrip
3rd level gain protection from evil and levitate
4th level gain know alignment and a homebrew spell
5th level gain hast and slow
6th level gain dispel magic and fly

no damage... no combat... well hast/slow in 5th

Armor, PFE, Levitate,Haste,Slow,Dispel,Fly are all combat spells.

But really, what is this Wiz trying to accomplish? Why is he adventuring and what is he doing for the party that the party wants to keep him around?

Yes, you picked a list of mostly useless spells. Woopee! Now why are you here? You're almost as useless out of combat.

 

[Remathilis]

Wait wait wait- the assertion being challenged is that you can't make a wizard who doesn't do damage. I don't think the assertion was "Wizards can always do something effective in combat"- if it was, I wouldn't disagree.

"Oh but Sleep is an attack spell" and "Oh but you're still lurking behind the damage that someone else is doing" seems to me like the goalposts are moving.

Those are types of damage so the goalposts are not moving.

It seems several people are confusing challenge with combat.

Lets say you want to walk into the kitchen, and I'm standing in the doorway blocking your path, Gandalf/Black Knight style. Your goal is to get into the kitchen, get a drink, and return to the TV. You need to get past me.

You can ask me (diplomacy) and if you succeed, I let you in.

You walk outside the house and sneak in through the kitchen window (stealth) and back out.

You could pull out a pocketwatch and hypnotize me into moving (magic).

Or you can punch me in the nose and knock me out cold (combat).

All four of those things can get you to your goal of an icy drink, but only one of those is going to require me to go to the hospital. In D&D terms, you can attempt to talk, sneak, enspell, or fight, but only one of those is "combat". Even though all of them do involve dice rolls (diplomacy check, stealth vs. perception, Will save, or attack vs. AC) only one is "combat". All of them were solutions to a challenge, one of them was combat.

 

[Sage Genesis]

Sleep and Visions of Avarice are two attack spells right off the bat because one causes unconsciousness and the other causes immobilization.

Those are attacks.

The assertion by GM was that he "couldn't make a (4e) wizard and have half his powers not cause damage" on a bet. This is a 4e wizard and all his powers don't cause damage. I never said I'd make a wizard who never had any attacks at all.

And really, that is kind of the point of 4e. A lot of the wizard's utility is shunted off into the ritual systems and as such can't be found under the wizard class powers descriptions. But there's still rituals as well as feats, items, and I think even a paragon path or epic destiny or two to help with this aspect of wizardry. They just decided with 4e that you could have all the magic utility you'd ever want... and still retain a certain minimum level of effectiveness in combat. This is not a zero sum thing. You can create the same utility guy as you could in 3e or 2e, you just also happen to be able to help out when you venture inside a dungeon to fight a dragon. Your increase in combat competence didn't come at the expense of non-combat competence.

 

[Remathilis]

Armor, PFE, Levitate,Haste,Slow,Dispel,Fly are all combat spells.

But really, what is this Wiz trying to accomplish? Why is he adventuring and what is he doing for the party that the party wants to keep him around?

Yes, you picked a list of mostly useless spells. Woopee! Now why are you here? You're almost as useless out of combat.

I'll give you Armor, PFE, and Haste/Slow, since defensive magic and buffs/debuffs still primarily see combat use.

But Levitate, Fly and Dispel?

Levitate can be used in combat to lift you above the fray, but its primary purpose is to be a free climb check to higher elevations. Ditto fly, the ultimate avoid hazard spells. Dispel serves to be far more useful dispelling magic traps and removing illusions and wards than debuffing.

In a pinch, ANYTHING can be used a weapon, but that doesn't make them weapons. I can beat someone up with a chair but that doesn't make a chair's primary use a weapon.

I mean, its like arguing light is a combat spell since it lets you see your target...

 

[Ahnehnois]

No. You cant.

At second level you will have +1 BAB and 2HD. Congratulations, you're now a combat character. Every level after that, you will be a BETTER combat character. You're empirically wrong with this assertion.

By this logic, a level 2 commoner is also a "combat character". I don't think so.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The original game was a war game with a very thin layer of something new over it....

I would be interested in why you are so sure of this view. Your profile says you were born in the 80's, and of that is right this was all happening before you were born - so why so sure?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I would be interested in why you are so sure of this view. Your profile says you were born in the 80's, and of that is right this was all happening before you were born - so why so sure?

yup I am an 80's child and didn't play D&D until the 90's

I am though someone who read those rules and can form an opion on it. I'm sure it was played (like as a rpg it was the first... But like every other edtion it was not becuse of the rules but almost inspite of it

And I'm not knocking it, Gary created modern fantasy games... But it started as a wargame