D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[pemerton]

Cast wall of force in there throat and choke him to death... no spell casting without silent spell and no way to breath... it was awesome...

The dragon landed to throw his weight around and tell the PCs they had to do something for him or he would destroy the town... the wizard told him "Treat us with respect and we will consider an offer of employment, brag again and I will end you..."
The dragon laughed and said "Take your best shot a..."
"Wall of force"
"Wait, where?"

0 dice rolled, 1 spell and a great story

I am guessing that [MENTION=5143]Majoru Oakheart[/MENTION] will regard this as non rules-compliant. That's certainly my feeling - while I don't know the ins and outs of Wall of Force in 3E, I would not have adjudicated the spell in the way you describe if GMing AD&D. In particular, given that a Light spell used to blind allows a save, at a minimum WoF should also. (Though I don't even think it can be cast inside a living creature - much like Create Water in the lungs not being legal.)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am guessing that [MENTION=5143]Majoru Oakheart[/MENTION] will regard this as non rules-compliant. That's certainly my feeling - while I don't know the ins and outs of Wall of Force in 3E, I would not have adjudicated the spell in the way you describe if GMing AD&D. In particular, given that a Light spell used to blind allows a save, at a minimum WoF should also. (Though I don't even think it can be cast inside a living creature - much like Create Water in the lungs not being legal.)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm

he was within 25ft+5ft per 2 levels (way closer really)

he had line of sight (the dragon was talking and you could look in it's mouth...)

The wall is anchored on all sides (the sides of the throat)

I'm not sure you can argue if it works RAW or not... but I could have had ways around it... I could have done a lot different. However when the whole table cheered and my jaw dropped, I was pretty inclined to give it to him.

 

[Hussar]

Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a for...

Whereas any group I've ever played in would pelt the player with dice for being a dick. There is absolutely no way that that is rules compliant either by RAW or ROI.

But it does show nicely why some people might think casters are overpowered.

But yeah as a player I would be very disappointed in that game and as a DM that would not happen.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Whereas any group I've ever played in would pelt the player with dice for being a dick.

even if you don't like the idea, and disagree with the ruleing, what is the harm in trying? and why would your group go to physical violence over it?

There is absolutely no way that that is rules compliant either by RAW or ROI.

But it does show nicely why some people might think casters are overpowered.

But yeah as a player I would be very disappointed in that game and as a DM that would not happen.

ok, I'm at a loss here... why is it bad?

outcome 1 (I disallow it from working) PCs must now fight a much more powerful dragon, and weaither win, lose or run

Out come 2 (one I choose) PCs get a cool nitch in there belt and we keep going...

Outcome 3 (I find loop hole to stop it) we loose X amount of game tiem where X is me pouring over books...


what out come is better for the game then Boom... nice trick now the game keeps going??

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm

he was within 25ft+5ft per 2 levels (way closer really)

he had line of sight (the dragon was talking and you could look in it's mouth...)

The wall is anchored on all sides (the sides of the throat)

I'm not sure you can argue if it works RAW or not... but I could have had ways around it... I could have done a lot different. However when the whole table cheered and my jaw dropped, I was pretty inclined to give it to him.

According to the SRD it needs to be vertical, so it can't fit into a creature's throat. It must be unbroken, so it can't cross the skin of the dragon. It says it is in square ft. I'd definitely rule that the shape always has to be square. I'm sure other people wouldn't, but my reading is that you get to choose the amount of square feet and get a vertical square or rectangular wall.

You could look in it's mouth, that's for sure, but I'd surely say you couldn't see into its throat unless a dragon's neck is just one big hollow tube.

At best, I'd allow you to put it inside its mouth as sort of a lozenge. It would take split timing to estimate the exact right size of the wall to not cross or touch any part of the dragon. Which would be even harder if the dragon was talking and therefore moving its mouth open and closed.

Also, a wall of force doesn't have to be anchored. Rather it's the exact opposite, it doesn't say anything about anchoring it, it can't move and it stays wherever you put it. Assuming the dragon could open its mouth slightly wider than it was when the spell was cast, all it would have to do is open it wider and move its mouth away from where it was located when the wall was created.

Plus, purely in a "Rules as Intended" way of thinking about it....the spell wasn't designed to kill anyone, that much is fairly apparent. It's a level 5 spell, but using it in the way described makes it much more powerful than some 9th level spells. Plus, it's way more versatile since it can now be used as a guaranteed no dice rolled kill on almost anything you can see in addition to being a wall spell. That means it fails my standard "Are you attempting to cheat the game?" test.

The general test I use to determine whether to allow something weird is a standard "Balance Insanity Test". Basically, I compare the action you are attempting to the standard options available. If your suggestion seems to be much more powerful than other options at its level and it is repeatable then I deny it outright if only for purely balance reasons. I don't want to run a game where all battles are decided by the same spell over and over again. It's boring and removes all the suspense from the game. After all, from that point onward EVERY spell of 5th level or higher would be prepared as Wall of Force.

Unfortunately, players LOVE situations where they win in one hit. After all, its their job to find new, awesome ways to win with no effort. That's the reason for my Balance Insanity Test...and the reason they'd all prepare Wall of Forces as all their spells for the rest of their lives. But what players THINK they want and what actually makes the game fun for people are two different things. Will they cheer that they just found an way to beat an impossibly powerful monster? Sure, after all, the point was that it was impossible and they just managed to do the impossible. Will the game be fun for them 10 sessions later when they've defeated every encounter since then with it? Unlikely. They'll complain about being bored with combat and how easy it is to win, so why bother having them?

Sometimes you need to say no in order to keep a handle on things and prevent them from going completely crazy. Otherwise, you'll end up like a Rifts campaign I ran once where the group literally had 500 long ranged fusion missiles mounted on a building that could all be fired at once or at 500 separate targets. The campaign got to the point where they refused to leave their building because it was the safest place in the world. If I sent enemies against them, they'd hit "THE BUTTON" and destroy them utterly. They had infinite money because I let them use their telemechanics power actually add money to their credit cards. The game ended because it was boring for me to run and there was nothing left on the planet that could defeat them.

 

[Abraxas]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm

he was within 25ft+5ft per 2 levels (way closer really)

he had line of sight (the dragon was talking and you could look in it's mouth...)

The wall is anchored on all sides (the sides of the throat)

I'm not sure you can argue if it works RAW or not... but I could have had ways around it... I could have done a lot different. However when the whole table cheered and my jaw dropped, I was pretty inclined to give it to him.

It's cool that your group had a good time, however a Wall of Force isn't anchored to anything, but it is immovable - all the dragon had to do was back up.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

According to the SRD it needs to be vertical, so it can't fit into a creature's throat.

it was vertical... up and down...

It must be unbroken, so it can't cross the skin of the dragon.

It didn't cross the skin, it filled the throat..

It says it is in square ft. I'd definitely rule that the shape always has to be square.

I could see that but I disagree I see no flaw in filling a round hole with it...

I'm sure other people wouldn't, but my reading is that you get to choose the amount of square feet and get a vertical square or rectangular wall.

they said a small or mediam creature can be swallowed by it... so it is big enough to be a passage way and can be blocked...

You could look in it's mouth, that's for sure, but I'd surely say you couldn't see into its throat unless a dragon's neck is just one big hollow tube.

I don't really care I thought it was cool at the time,,,

At best, I'd allow you to put it inside its mouth as sort of a lozenge. It would take split timing to estimate the exact right size of the wall to not cross or touch any part of the dragon. Which would be even harder if the dragon was talking and therefore moving its mouth open and closed.

seems like an OK ruleing... but would take WAY too much time at the table for me...

Also, a wall of force doesn't have to be anchored. Rather it's the exact opposite, it doesn't say anything about anchoring it, it can't move and it stays wherever you put it. Assuming the dragon could open its mouth slightly wider than it was when the spell was cast, all it would have to do is open it wider and move its mouth away from where it was located when the wall was created.

I figured it could not and choked 'hanging' in place...

Plus, purely in a "Rules as Intended" way of thinking about it....the spell wasn't designed to kill anyone, that much is fairly apparent. It's a level 5 spell, but using it in the way described makes it much more powerful than some 9th level spells. Plus, it's way more versatile since it can now be used as a guaranteed no dice rolled kill on almost anything you can see in addition to being a wall spell. That means it fails my standard "Are you attempting to cheat the game?" test.

I only see it as cheating if you get something you shouldn't all we got was a funny story....

The general test I use to determine whether to allow something weird is a standard "Balance Insanity Test". Basically, I compare the action you are attempting to the standard options available. If your suggestion seems to be much more powerful than other options at its level and it is repeatable then I deny it outright if only for purely balance reasons.

very good general rule, and I do so as well a lot of the time...

I don't want to run a game where all battles are decided by the same spell over and over again. It's boring and removes all the suspense from the game. After all, from that point onward EVERY spell of 5th level or higher would be prepared as Wall of Force.

I don't see that slippery slope here the circumstances where rather uniqe... so no worry about wall of force spams... it really only works as a surprise attack on a huge target that is staying on one place and yapping...

Unfortunately, players LOVE situations where they win in one hit. After all, its their job to find new, awesome ways to win with no effort. That's the reason for my Balance Insanity Test...and the reason they'd all prepare Wall of Forces as all their spells for the rest of their lives.

I agree the players loved it, but they didn't consider it a new go to tactic... although many levels later we did see it used again on one of the 7 tarrasques they had to stop...

But what players THINK they want and what actually makes the game fun for people are two different things.

could not agree more...

Will they cheer that they just found an way to beat an impossibly powerful monster? Sure, after all, the point was that it was impossible and they just managed to do the impossible. Will the game be fun for them 10 sessions later when they've defeated every encounter since then with it? Unlikely. They'll complain about being bored with combat and how easy it is to win, so why bother having them?

so let them have one or two big impossible victories but don't let them make it a habbit...

Sometimes you need to say no in order to keep a handle on things and prevent them from going completely crazy.

and I do... heck sometimes I even say no to basic things...

Otherwise, you'll end up like a Rifts campaign I ran once where the group literally had 500 long ranged fusion missiles mounted on a building that could all be fired at once or at 500 separate targets. The campaign got to the point where they refused to leave their building because it was the safest place in the world. If I sent enemies against them, they'd hit "THE BUTTON" and destroy them utterly. They had infinite money because I let them use their telemechanics power actually add money to their credit cards. The game ended because it was boring for me to run and there was nothing left on the planet that could defeat them.

sounds cool, I would have had enemy troops rift or teleport right into the bulding and take it over and make the PCs fight to reclaim it... then I would have the people who did it write humilateing things on the walls and wrech something the PCs cared about "You did what to my game system?" then teleport out... most likely the PCs would track them down... but I can't see a long run in the game...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's cool that your group had a good time, however a Wall of Force isn't anchored to anything, but it is immovable - all the dragon had to do was back up.

well it fails my one test "How is that a more fun game?" but even so I just assumed it was 'stuck' and he could not...

 

[Abraxas]

well it fails my one test "How is that a more fun game?" but even so I just assumed it was 'stuck' and he could not...

Like I said - it's cool your group had fun.

I would have thought the ensuing fight or flight would be quite fun. Plus, given how easily this could be used to kill a PC or any future foe disallowing it preserves future fun.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I'm glad you enjoyed the game - 1st rule of a successful game - but note that this Wall of Force trick example is also a great example of something a fighter or other non-spellcaster would ever, ever be able to get away with in any but the most cartoonish D&D game. And since that's one of the (many) points of this interminable thread...