D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

Not sure what you're trying to prove here, but if you actually went by real games, then you would know that corner cases did happen, but not all of us DM'd or played with a DM who put the dungeon in suspended animation so that everything is in the exact place when the players came back.

I can also tell you that we didn't leave dungeons unless everyone wanted too. We had wizards who left while everyone else kept going.

How much change does your dungeon undergo in 8 hours? Maybe 12 hours at most?

I've seen this argument before and it never really flies. For one, for your claim to be true, then every dungeon must be completed in one go. No resting is possible, after all, so, you keep pushing on.

The idea that you're doing this at high levels is laughable. It just is. High level monsters can deal about 10xCR per round in damage. Give or take. Multiply that be two or three monsters in an encounter and your fighter dies by the second encounter without a cleric propping up his HP.

I just have no idea how you guys do this without dying all the time. I know, for sure, that in a game I ran, if you pulled this, you would die. Not in corner cases, but in every single case. At high level? Yeah, you don't keep pushing on, because without those casters, the mundanes are toast.
 

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Not sure what you're trying to prove here, but if you actually went by real games, then you would know that corner cases did happen, but not all of us DM'd or played with a DM who put the dungeon in suspended animation so that everything is in the exact place when the players came back.
I can tell you that in my longest run campaign, the one I talk about above where I ran Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil followed by Return to Maure Castle (and then started running a converted Labyrinth of Madness before we decided to end it when 4e came out) this is what happened:

Spolers for Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil:
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The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is almost entirely one big dungeon divided into sections by elemental faction. The adventure spelled out that the different factions of the dungeons hated each other and wouldn't work together. They were happy to see the other factions get killed by adventurers, confident that they would succeed where the other factions failed and therefore inherit all of the other faction's space and power.

There were also monsters that lived in the buffer space between the temples. They were not affiliated with any of the temples and didn't care for the plight of any of the temples.

The leadership faction who was in charge of the whole "temple" didn't care about any of their followers. The lesser factions were there as a buffer...as fodder. Their work was too important. They were going to free their god, Tharizdun and he was going to destroy the world and them with it. They were happy to be destroyed in his honor...so were all their underlings. The underlings were there to buy them time until their ritual could be completed and the world destroyed.

Most of the time the adventurers came back the next day whenever they'd leave and attack. The temple's didn't really have the resources to made new defenses in 24 hours. Most of the factions only have 12-20 members. The adventure even spelled out that the guards guarding the outside gates would be replaced but generally took a week or so for them to recruit new guards and put them on guard duty.

Heck, the first couple of times the PCs attacked I made it so that the temple residents were so confused that these adventurers showed up and left again that they wrote it off as a one time thing...they had successfully repelled the adventurers who were afraid of their vast magic and power(they were standard villains and way too full of themselves).

After it happened a number of more times, they were a little more wary. They tried their best to be on the lookout for random adventurers wandering their way into their temples. They put people on watch, but they still had to go about their daily lives and couldn't watch 24 hours a day. They had no idea when the PCs would show up again. Especially because the PCs would take random days off. They made one trip to Greyhawk City and back again which took nearly a month and made the entire dungeon think the incursion was over.

Because the temples didn't really talk to one another, news of the PCs didn't reach the other temples who were just as confused the first time the PCs showed up and attacked them. When the PCs got to high enough level, they'd often teleport back into the temple behind their defenses.

The residents of the temple had lived there for years before the PCs showed up with no problems for the longest time. They only had to defend themselves against attacks from the other temples. Those happened rarely.
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Spoilers for Return to Maure Castle:
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In Maure Castle, the point of the adventure was that no one had entered or left the place in a couple of hundred years. Almost every monster in there didn't have contact with any other monster. They were either mindless or lived in their corner of the dungeon and didn't care about the other residents having a couple hundred years ago stopped even leaving their rooms.

There were a couple of small compounds of intelligent beings. However, most of the time the PCs teleported in and without being seen or heard opened a door, killed the occupant and then teleported out before anyone even noticed. The other residents would look around for whoever killed their friend, couldn't find them and then went back to doing what they normally did when the problem was written off as unsolvable given that none of them had magical powers.
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I can also tell you that we didn't leave dungeons unless everyone wanted too. We had wizards who left while everyone else kept going.
They split the party? You never split the party. Rule number #1. No one in our group would leave if the rest of the party stayed. They'd suggest that leaving was the best option, if they were outvoted they'd stay and risk their lives. Though, they normally weren't outvoted because the rest of the party didn't care if they stayed or left. They wanted to get the treasure from the monsters but whether they did it today or tomorrow was all the same to them.
 


Which has nothing to do with the fighter class. The wizards just beat him to the punch. What would have happened if they had made their saves and only took half damage? We can post these corner cases all day long, but it solves nothing.

The Bad Guys did make most their Fort saves and mostly did take half damage. They still took I think 4 Horrid Wiltings at 17d6/2 or 18d6/2 each, plus various Quickened spells on the side.

This is not some weird corner case. It's far more baked in to high level 3e than you seem to realise.
 

Which has nothing to do with the fighter class. The wizards just beat him to the punch. What would have happened if they had made their saves and only took half damage? We can post these corner cases all day long, but it solves nothing.

The Bad Guys did make most their Fort saves and mostly did take half damage. They still took I think 4 Horrid Wiltings at 17d6/2 or 18d6/2 each, plus various Quickened spells on the side.

This is not some weird corner case. It's far more baked in to high level 3e than you
seem to realise.

Anyway you said "Tell Me Just One Fighter Who Did Nothing in Combat..." - I told you.
QED, Mr Goalposts-Mover. :p
 

Actually, that was the 3rd edition minatures game. If the standard game is assumed to use minatures, then why create anactual minatures game with rules and all?

Actually no it wasn't. And 4e had its own minatures game - which was around for exactly the same reason that 3.5 had its version of D&D minatures. That whether you use minis is orthogonal to whether something is an RPG.
 

I will agree that it worked for his group and that anything that works for your group isn't necessarily bad. Though I'm not willing to say they did it "right". The right way of doing it would have worked regardless of who was at the table.

Then there is no such thing as "the right way." Nothing works regardless of who's at the table.
 

lots of PCs keep doing dungeon crawls into the epic levels... However I agree the game should have moved on by then...
...
the problem is that the book presents like that is an option... just scale the numbers but you are quite correct it doesn't work.
You may be right about that. I think, for all its issues, the ELH had some good advice, and perhaps filled in some gaps or inadequacies in the original DMG. Same too for the Elder Evils book.

My experience is that high-level play works, but with two caveats, you have to change the nature of the challenges to something a little more advanced than a hallway with a monster made of hp and BAB at the end, and you have to be willing to do a lot of work.

It could have been the end boss of the dungeon, or just the next bad guy, either way the caster could rule the fight... if you are going to wait for someone to finish the fight odds are the cleric is better at combat at that point... the fighter is just there to carry stuff/
IME, the fighter is there for really large hordes that would drain the caster's resources, or really magic resistant enemies that require a good martial character to hit. Any other combat scenario I imagine would favor the offensive spellcaster, which doesn't seem a big deal to me because those two battle types should happen pretty often.

And, with a sense of deja vu, I must state that the spellcaster's most efficient option probably would have been to use those spell slots on buffing said fighter out of his mind.

They were in a Dungeon because they were asked to find an ancient magical item that was supposedly located at the bottom for a patron.

They were in the inn doing the same thing everyone else does: Eating and sleeping. They had nowhere else to do that. They hadn't had a home in years having been adventuring for that entire time.
For quasi-deities, these characters sure are living a banal life.

They only planned on fighting 3 or 4 encounters a day. Each one took about a round or so, if they cast 2 spells a round, they had the 8 slots to spare. Even then, if they were running low for the last combat, they'd let the fighter do his thing for that combat. They could teleport, so they could leave whenever they felt their spell slots were running low.
Good thing their only goals involved challenges that don't anticipate their abilities, react to them, or preempt them!

Reminds me of a great Star Trek episode I saw once where a couple of cadets stole a shuttle, used the transporter to beam into every bank on planet Earth, vaporized the doors to the vaults with their phasers, and beamed back out with all the money in the world with no one the wiser. It was just that easy!

I was running an adventure out of Dungeon Magazine in 2004: Return to Maure Castle written by Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax.
Well, there's a problem. I would definitely not expect a published adventure to work at that level (or any level really, but especially not that level). It doesn't sound like it really leveraged any of the things you can do to players at that level.

A lot of monsters have great ACs and no protection against magic, however. It is a side effect of the process used to create monsters in 3.5e. Monsters that were the "Brute" monsters were almost all so vulnerable to magic that they were nothing more than a speed bump. At the higher levels, a large number of monsters were just Brute monsters. In order to protect yourself from magic, you pretty much needed a large number of magic items or the ability to cast spells yourself. If the monster was non-intelligent it pretty much precluded it from having any of those abilities.
This is true, and this is where the CR system fails. A dumb brute (with special exceptions like the Tarrasque) is simply not an appropriate challenge for high-level characters (of any class, really). This isn't a flaw of the rules for creating monsters, but the guidelines for using them. I assure you, the rules provide for creating some much better monsters.
 

For quasi-deities, these characters sure are living a banal life.
Well, they are powerful....but there are many other people out there nearly as powerful. And let's be fair about their life if you followed them in my game:
"A bunch of adventurers looking for work were asked to deliver a package to someone in a village. They found the guy missing and uncovered a plot to destroy the world. They tried to warn people but no one would listen so they spent the next year of their life waging guerrilla warfare against the enemy's stronghold, killing off and defeating the cult until the threat against the world was no more. When they finish that, they found out they had extraordinary powers...but still didn't have any jobs. Someone came up to them and offered them a position in a group called Barricade that protects the world against extremely powerful threats and acquires extremely rare items for people with enough money. Their first assignment: find a magical item from the bottom of a dungeon created by one of the most powerful families of Wizards ever to exist."

Good thing their only goals involved challenges that don't anticipate their abilities, react to them, or preempt them!
Just like the challenges they faced before that. And the challenges I faced the last time I played a game. Also the time before that. And every game since I started playing D&D 20 years ago. In fact, I can't think of a single time the enemies reacted to our abilities or attempted to preempt them.

We've always played that the PCs are exceptional. Their abilities are all but unknown except for the most powerful people in the world. There are powerful people, but most of them are just really, really good at fighting. Wizards and spell casters are 1 in 100 or less than that.

I think of it the same way I think of the Forgotten Realms novels. In them, Bruenor Battlehammer is the king of Mithril Hall. He was listed as a 13th level fighter in the 3e FR books. He is likely much higher level by the time some of the later books happen. He has no idea how teleportation magic works. His kingdom isn't especially warded against anyone teleporting in. He has some Clerics in his Clan, but almost none of them are as powerful as he is. This is a major Dwarven kingdom, as well. Drizzt is equally high level and knows very little about magic.

When they fight Wizards, they do so by dodging out of the way of their spells and killing them with pure swordplay. There's no anticipating their abilities or preempting them.

They also fairly often stay in inns.

Reminds me of a great Star Trek episode I saw once where a couple of cadets stole a shuttle, used the transporter to beam into every bank on planet Earth, vaporized the doors to the vaults with their phasers, and beamed back out with all the money in the world with no one the wiser. It was just that easy!
To be fair, it would likely be that easy in the Star Trek universe, what with the whole "Humans have evolved beyond crime" thing they have going on. No one would expect it or likely have any defense against it.

Still, there's a difference between technology and magic. In Star Trek, there are likely millions of engineers that are inventing things. The things they invent are instantly transmitted to everyone else on the planet via a world wide communication network where they can be replicated for free. If there is a device that prevents someone from beaming into a bank, it's likely every bank in the world has one. This is because everyone in the world has access to transporter technology as well for the same reasons. You don't need to be an engineer to acquire or use any of these devices.

In D&D, magic items are created by wizards who are a very small percentage of the population using an art steeped in mystery and obfuscation. These wizards are jealous, secretive, and loners by their very nature. Creating magic items, depending on the edition either requires quests that can take a year to finish and require risking your life against extremely dangerous creatures(2e) or require putting your own life force into the item(3e) and likely also cost extremely large sums of cash. Even if one invents a way to stop teleportation, its likely not every wizard knows this secret. Even if they did know the secret is it worth the time and energy to make such an item or ward a place against it when there are very few people in the world who are powerful enough to cast such magic?

These kinds of protections aren't the sort of thing that you'll find at every bank or every monster lair in the world. Even the powerful ones. Just because the book says there is a spell or magic item to protect against something, I don't immediately assume the bad guys have it. In fact, rather the opposite. I find the specific creation of counter measures against the PCs' abilities to be rather contrived and unlikely without a REALLY good reason. If the bad guys have a powerful wizard and I've decided he knows the spell that would counter the PCs and he has seen them use it before and they've given him reason to believe they'll be back AND they give him time to cast it...sure, they might be countered.

I don't consider this to be a "default" position by any means. At least, not according to the lore and setting I envision D&D taking place in.

Well, there's a problem. I would definitely not expect a published adventure to work at that level (or any level really, but especially not that level). It doesn't sound like it really leveraged any of the things you can do to players at that level.
Oddly enough, I took the magazine at its word when it said "For adventurers level 15 to 19". I assumed they were publishing adventures that would work fine at that level. The DMG didn't tell me I needed to do anything special to run a game at 16th level vs 1st level. It said to pick monsters of the appropriate CRs and use the same combat rules I'd been using since the beginning.

D&D never told me there was some sort of special procedure I needed to go through to run a high level game. I figured that since the magazine was being published in concert with the people who created the game, they would know if published adventures were a bad idea and wouldn't publish them if that was the case.

This is true, and this is where the CR system fails. A dumb brute (with special exceptions like the Tarrasque) is simply not an appropriate challenge for high-level characters (of any class, really). This isn't a flaw of the rules for creating monsters, but the guidelines for using them. I assure you, the rules provide for creating some much better monsters.
The brute monsters worked just fine as monsters against the non-magic classes. It was only the casters that often made them useless.

I'm not sure how using them differently would matter. The monsters themselves were kind of useless against casters. They were monsters that were published in Monster Manuals and labelled specifically for high level play.

I'm sure there ARE rules for creating ones that work better. However, I'd rather not limit myself to a small collection of monsters out of all of them that are available simply because spellcasters were created with poor balance in the game.

I mean, are we really in a thread whose topic is "There were no real problems with balance in D&D, it was all academic" saying "There's no problem at all with spellcasters, you just needed to restrict yourself to 5% of the monsters that can handle them properly, design adventures specifically to counter all their abilities and never run published adventures ever. But not because there's an issue with balance...but because.....reasons..."
 

Then there is no such thing as "the right way." Nothing works regardless of who's at the table.
I believe otherwise. I find that following the rules tends to work regardless of who is at the table. At the very least almost all types of players can understand "I am just following the rules". Sometimes the rules we have aren't the best solution to the problem at hand. However, if everyone follows the rules at least everyone is on the same page.

In the same way that if someone asks "How many squares do I move in Monopoly?" the RIGHT answer it "As many as you roll on the dice". Sure, sometimes it might be more fun to do it a different way. That doesn't make it any less the wrong answer.
 

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