D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Ruin Explorer]

We know for a fact that spellcasters were among elves, orcs and men at the very least. And that Gandalf was casting spells at Moria at the very least, not using divine power, unless he's also a liar and I don't think Tolkien intended him to be a liar.

We have absolutely not one tiny shred of evidence that any of those "spellcasters" are "wizards" or that there's any crossover in terms of "spells", as far as I recall. What's your evidence there is?

As for Moria, it's not clear Gandalf even was fully aware he was a Maiar at that time. And there's no reason to believe the "spells" weren't fuelled by divine power - when, exactly, did Gandalf say they weren't?

That's my entire point. There are Mair that aren't Istari and therefore are not wizards, that means that the Istari have to be both Maiar AND izards

Absolutely not.

Again, look at the links.

You literally do not understand LotR. 100% of characters called "wizards" are Istari Maiar. There are no "wizards" who are not Istari Maiar.

Istari Maiar are Maiar who are weaker (or merely more restrained) seemingly in order that they don't cause absolute screaming chaos like the more powerful Maiar. That's the difference. They're supposed to play it smart, not powerful. But there's no evidence anyone else in Middle Earth is a "wizard", and clear evidence that wizard and Istari are simply terms for the same thing.

Again if you think Istari are using the same spells as other spellcasters, let's hear your examples.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Sauron and Finrod were magically fighting by singing, so I'd say Tolkien's spellcasters are all Bards.

 

[Maxperson]

We have absolutely not one tiny shred of evidence that any of those "spellcasters" are "wizards" or that there's any crossover in terms of "spells", as far as I recall. What's your evidence there is?

This is a quote.

"I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."

Doesn't matter if they are wizards, they have spellcasters. There's the term spells. And knows and can use them. Because wizard.

As for Moria, it's not clear Gandalf even was fully aware he was a Maiar at that time. And there's no reason to believe the "spells" weren't fuelled by divine power - when, exactly, did Gandalf say they weren't?

Of course Gandalf knew. He was commanded to keep his power in check, not forget.

You literally do not understand LotR. 100% of characters called "wizards" are Istari Maiar. There are no "wizards" who are not Istari Maiar.

And you literally do not understand that he was casting spells. Not using divine power. Spells.

Istari Maiar are weaker Maiar who are weaker (or merely more restrained) seemingly in order that don't cause absolute screaming chaos like the more powerful Maiar. That's the difference. They're supposed to play it smart, not powerful. But there's no evidence anyone else in Middle Earth is a "wizard", and clear evidence that wizard and Istari are simply terms for the same thing.

Another difference is that they cast spells.

Again if you think Istari are using the same spells as other spellcasters, let's hear your examples.

He literally used them on the doors at Moria.

 

[mamba]

This is a quote.

"I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."

sounds like he knows more than the casters of the mortal races

Of course Gandalf knew. He was commanded to keep his power in check, not forget.

agreed, he knew

And you literally do not understand that he was casting spells. Not using divine power. Spells.

no idea if other Maiar couldn't do that as well and it comes from being Maia

He literally used them on the doors at Moria.

he says a word, anyone could have done that, provided they knew the language

 

[Maxperson]

sounds like he knows more than the casters of the mortal races

No idea. All we know is that 1) he's a wizard in ADDITION to be a maia and 2) he knows and can use spells from the mortal races which have nothing to do with his divine powers. It could be that they can use his spells as well. We don't know.

no idea if other Maiar couldn't do that as well and it comes from being Maia

There's literally nothing that says that.

he says a word, anyone could have done that, provided they knew the language

After he tried spells of opening and other things. He mentions spells of closing later on in Moria.

 

[ECMO3]

The Detroit Lions show that to not be universally true. Barry Sanders was the entire team for years.

30 years ago when the game was different and I believe they did not manage to win a single superbowl and went to few playhoffs.

This underscores my point - on a team with many, many poor QBs the greatest running back in the world could not carry them.

No quarterback to speak of, though Rodney Peet was okay during those years.

From I am guessing 20 years ago or so?

He had no receivers to throw to, though. No offensive line. No good tight ends.

Yeah he did not have the team of less important players supporting him.

To put this in D&D parlance - the great Wizard who rolled really well at character creation, supported by a cast of mediocre Rogues, Barbarians and Fighters who rolled poorly will be less effective than the good Wizard who rolled above average and is supported by a cast of exceptional non-casters.

Why ...... teamwork! Those inferior classes support and prop up the entire TEAM.

 

[ECMO3]

So what's wrong with a martial warrior honing his skill to the point of becoming supernaturally proficient with it?

It makes no sense.

Gildor Inglorion and Glorfindel could kill them both with swords, and in the case of Glorfindel, at the same time. Glorfindel killed multiple Balrogs and Gandalf couldn't survive even one.

I do not believe Glorfindel is presented as a non-magical martial, especially since an entire river with flames comes down on the Ringwraiths pursing his horse. I also think it was Ringwraiths he faced, not Balrog although it has been a while.

This is aside from the fact that Elves themselves are magical in Tolkien and Glorfindel lit himself with magical light when he came to meet Frodo.

It can be difficult to fit characters into a class, but it is clear Gorfindel is not non-magical at all. If anything he is an example of why the Gish should be better than the pure non-caster.

I don't know the other guy you mentioned.

Elric's sorcery is slow. If someone jumps him with a sword, it's the martial aspect that's going to win the fight.

He would flat die without his magic sword. It is magic that feeds his martial ability.

The sword only matters if it hits and tastes blood.

Which it has to do for him to even stay alive, let alone fight well. If you read the books it is clear Stormbringer is what makes him capable of supernatural feats with his sword. Despite being the second best trained Swordsman in Melibone (and by extension the world), he can't beat back numerous foes without the sword and it states this very clearly in the books, multiple times when he is fighting many enemies.

Here you have a good example, but it's not one that says that martials can't be super strong, either. They heroes rely on and are in awe of the martial prowess of the paladin.

THE PALADIN IS A CASTER! I have no problem with supernatural casters. In fact I think that is the way it should be.

King Arthur.

What phiscal feat did he accomplish other than removing Excaliber from the stone (which was not a feat of strength, but one of destiny).

Achilles.

Hercules.

I agree, these are two good examples, although I think they are from mythology, not literature.

Blade.

A half Vampire, who is magical.

Many of the martials in comic books.

Have any examples from fanatasy comic genre that are not supernatural or magical in nature?

 

[mamba]

No idea. All we know is that 1) he's a wizard in ADDITION to be a maia and 2) he knows and can use spells from the mortal races which have nothing to do with his divine powers. It could be that they can use his spells as well. We don't know.

There's literally nothing that says that.

as you said, we do not know, which also means you cannot really claim that it comes from the wizard part

After he tried spells of opening and other things. He mentions spells of closing later on in Moria.

none of which worked. If your point is that he can cast spells at all, I don't think anyone was disagreeing with that

 

[Maxperson]

It makes no sense.

It's a classic fantasy trope.

He would flat die without his magic sword. It is magic that feeds his martial ability.

No it isn't. The magic fuels his strength and endurance. The skill is 100% Elrics.

Which it has to do for him to even stay alive, let alone fight well. If you read the books it is clear Stormbringer is what makes him capable of supernatural feats with his sword. Despite being the second best Swordsman in Melibone he can't beat back numerous foes without it and it states this very clearly in the books.

I read the books. It seems that you've forgotten the potions that restore his strength and vitality. He did not need Stormbringer. Stormbringer just managed to function as those potions when it drained souls.

THE PALADIN IS A CASTER! I have no problem with supernatural casters. In fact I think that is the way it should be.

In 5e the paladin is a caster the way a catfish is a cat. I mean, kinda sorta, but not really. A paladin is a smiter.

These are two good examples, although I think they are from mythology, not literature.

Er, mythology is literature. I've read a lot of books on it.

Examples that are not supernatural or magical in nature?

Zoro from One Piece.

 

[Maxperson]

as you said, we do not know, which also means you cannot really claim that it comes from the wizard part

No. That's wrong. We cannot know if wizardry and mortal magic are one and the same. We can know that Gandalf cast spells. It's in the books. We can know that being a wizard is separate from being a maia. It's in the books.

none of which worked. If your point is that he can cast spells at all, I don't think anyone was disagreeing with that

Ruin Explorer did by claiming that it was 100% from his divine power. Also, @Ruin Explorer, just because 100% of the 5 named wizards(Istari) are maia, does not mean that 100% of Istari are maia. The books say that they were chosen from the Order of the Istari(wizards), but nothing says that the order didn't include both mortal and immortal spellcasters. Istari might just be what the valar and maiar call spellscasters of any sort.