Why the Sneak Attack update

[evilbob]

I wasn't under the impression that rogues were behind the damage curve compared to other strikers.

Actually, I was. I'd put barbarians first by a mile (no... two miles), then sorcs and rangers, and then rogues are toward the middle. So this is a nice, if small, boost. (They're still ahead of warlocks, though.)

Edit: just to qualify this statement a little, rogues also get more skills and other things they are good at besides damage.

 

[Jarrod]

Taking opportunity attacks requires the rogue to have melee training, which is some amount of cost. The real hit comes with action points, readying, and an optional warlord.

Rogue: attacks, Action Points, readies an attack on monster 1 on monster 2's turn.
Monster 2 acts: rogue stabs monster 1.
Warlord acts: tells the rogue to stab monster 1 again, Action Points, readies to tell the rogue to attack monster 1 on monster 3's turn.
Monster 3: warlord ready goes off, rogue stabs monster 1.

... I did tell my players that readying on A's turn to attack B, without a good tactical reason (say, A is a healer and they're waiting until after it goes), would be frowned on and returned with monsters gang-readying on PCs

 

[DracoSuave]

Taking opportunity attacks requires the rogue to have melee training

Since when?

The most common rogue build always has been Brutal Scoundrel.

Rogue: attacks, Action Points, readies an attack on monster 1 on monster 2's turn.
Monster 2 acts: rogue stabs monster 1.
Warlord acts: tells the rogue to stab monster 1 again, Action Points, readies to tell the rogue to attack monster 1 on monster 3's turn.
Monster 3: warlord ready goes off, rogue stabs monster 1.

... I did tell my players that readying on A's turn to attack B, without a good tactical reason (say, A is a healer and they're waiting until after it goes), would be frowned on and returned with monsters gang-readying on PCs

1) Maximizing damage on one monster to get it bloodied as fast as possible IS a tactic. It's the execution of that tactic that rogues are meant to do... that's like saying the warlord isn't using tactical reason when he shifts someone.

2) Rogue: Move, Action point:attacks, readies an attack on monster 1 on monster 2's turn, when monster 2 moves/attacks.
Monster 2 acts: rogue stabs monster 1.
Warlord acts: Action point:tells the rogue to stab monster 1 again, readies to tell the rogue to attack monster 1 on monster 3's turn, when monster 3 moves/attacks
Monster 3: warlord ready goes off, rogue stabs monster 1.

Is a more accurate and better version of how the plan should work. You've got a warlord, spend your Action point on attacking, not on readying actions, to get the Warlord's benefit.

But then this plan also has an easy counter.

Rogue: Move, Action point:attacks, readies a specific attack on monster 1 on monster 2's turn, when monster 2 moves/attacks.
Monster 2: Delay
Warlord acts: Action point:tells the rogue to stab monster 1 again, readies to tell the rogue to basic attack monster 1 on monster 3's turn, when monster 3 moves/attacks
Monster 3: Delay
Monster 1: Attack Rogue, shift one square away.
Monster 2: Charge Rogue
Monster 3: Charge Rogue.

GOOD JOB SPENDING THOSE ACTION POINTS HEROES


Do remember, you cannot ready an action for 'when someone acts.' It has to be more specific than that, like when they move or when they attack. As well, you can't ready 'I attack.' It has to be a specific action.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Rogue: Move, Action point:attacks, readies a specific attack on monster 1 on monster 2's turn, when monster 2 moves/attacks.
Monster 2: Delay
Warlord acts: Action point:tells the rogue to stab monster 1 again, readies to tell the rogue to basic attack monster 1 on monster 3's turn, when monster 3 moves/attacks
Monster 3: Delay
Monster 1: Attack Rogue, shift one square away.
Monster 2: Charge Rogue
Monster 3: Charge Rogue.

Do remember, you cannot ready an action for 'when someone acts.' It has to be more specific than that, like when they move or when they attack. As well, you can't ready 'I attack.' It has to be a specific action.

"When the warlord says "go", I act"
"When the rogue attacks, I act"

Warlord says go as a free action at any time.

However, note as a DM that readying and delaying are both highly beneficial to you, and you may well be doing them all the time. For instance if you move 5 monsters next to a PC and then roll all of their attacks, technically you probably delayed one or more of them while you moved the others, then readied the first ones attacks for after the rest had moved into position.

Feel free to take flanking bonuses for all of them.

It's a lot smoother than rolling initiative for each one.

 

[chriton227]

Actually, I was. I'd put barbarians first by a mile (no... two miles), then sorcs and rangers, and then rogues are toward the middle. So this is a nice, if small, boost. (They're still ahead of warlocks, though.)

That's odd, I would have put rogues ahead of barbarians based the current campaign I'm in. At L6, the charge-oriented artful dodger rogue dishes out more damage than my whirling slayer barbarian. His Sly Flourish (d6+2d8+cha+dex) comes out ahead vs. my Howling Strike (d10+d6+str) or Whirling Rend (d10+str and d10), and when charging he stays ahead in the comparison thanks to us both having vanguard weapons, but him having a feat that gives him an extra 1W on charges to balance the loss of Cha to damage from using a basic attack with melee training. On the rare occurrence when I roll a crit I can do a lot of damage, but it is still similar to what he is getting with his crits, and I'm lucky to see that happen once per session. It's not uncommon for us to go 6+ encounters between extended rests, so any extra damage from my 2 rages a day really hasn't made much of a difference. As we go up in levels, his dex and cha will go up and he will get more sneak attack dice, I'll just have my str go up. I could see barbarians coming out ahead if the adventuring day was kept short enough for the barbarian to use a rage every encounter. I may just be missing something in how to make a barbarian effective though.

Likewise, a previous campaign I played a sorcerer to upper paragon levels, the rogue in that party consistently did double the damage I did to a single target, but I came out ahead in total damage dealt thanks to AoEs.

 

[Steelwill]

Because rogues thus far have been addressed in Essentials, but sorcerers, monks, warlocks, and rangers haven't yet.

 

[vagabundo]

I'm imagining this scenario now: One rogue, toughed out with a few feats (durable, etc...), surrounded by foes. Four warlords each shouting orders at the rogue on their turn, "Attack, Attack... Attack... Attack!!!" Hmm how to get CA though...

"Send in the Gimp," him decked out in leather armour.

I like where this is going.

 

[Jhaelen]

Actually, I was. I'd put barbarians first by a mile (no... two miles), then sorcs and rangers, and then rogues are toward the middle. So this is a nice, if small, boost. (They're still ahead of warlocks, though.)

I think you also have to look at accuracy. The only class that is even more accurate is the Avenger.

Barbarian damage in my experience is behind the ranger. The reason is that a barbarian's damage output can vary quite a bit depending on the combat situation, terrain, etc. Rangers are hardly ever affected. Rangers deal very high damage and they deal it consistently.

 

[Riley]

I'm imagining this scenario now: One rogue, toughed out with a few feats (durable, etc...), surrounded by foes. Four warlords each shouting orders at the rogue on their turn, "Attack, Attack... Attack... Attack!!!" Hmm how to get CA though...

"Send in the Gimp," him decked out in leather armour.

I like where this is going.

I'm imagining a huge, hulking Brutal Scoundrel named Blaster, with a halfling Warlord in his backback named Master.

 

[vagabundo]

I'm imagining a huge, hulking Brutal Scoundrel named Blaster, with a halfling Warlord in his backback named Master.

Maybe he has a bag of giant trained rats (Nature check DC 25; Trained trick: attack), he empties them out before combat begins (minor), Master whistles (minor) and the rats swarm around the enemies, then Blaster wades into his foes (move and standard action) and Blaster gets CA! Master whispers instructions into Blasters ear giving him extra attacks.

Hilarity ensues...


Oh Blaster should probably be armed with a club. A great big club with rusty nails in it.