Why the Sneak Attack update

[Riley]

Oh Blaster should probably be armed with a club. A great big club with rusty nails in it.

You mean a morning star? Do those exist in 4e?

 

[vagabundo]

You mean a morning star? Do those exist in 4e?

Yep. part of the Mace group.

He could be a:

Ruthless Ruffian
You are proficient with the club and the mace, and you can use those weapons with Sneak Attack or any rogue power or rogue paragon path power that normally requires a light blade. If you use a club or a mace to deliver an attack that has the rattling keyword, add your Strength modifier to the damage roll.

This guy nearly builds himself: trained in Intimidate, trick out with powers with the rattling keyword.

 

[evilbob]

That's odd, I would have put rogues ahead of barbarians based the current campaign I'm in.

Interesting! I'd say you had a friend with a particularly good rogue build who is good at figuring out how to use it; the artful dodgers are typically in the middle of the pack for rogues, even.

At the same time, you're comparing specific at-wills while charging - which sounds like his forte, and you guys are doing pretty well to pull off so many charges. In my experience, barbarians do more damage to more targets (especially whirling ones) and thus more overall damage. Plus their encounters and dailies tend to do more. Maybe you just need to pull out the big guns more often?

I think you also have to look at accuracy.

Also a very good point: rogues - again, in my experience - tend to do lower damage per hit but can be built with much higher accuracy. When you only miss on 1s and 2s your total damage does tend to go up.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

There are basically four distinct situations for a Rogue:

1. CA is easy to get because the Rogue is built for it, e.g. lots of powers that grant CA directly or cause status effects that grant CA. Feats like Vicious Advantage and Expert Sneak help a lot in that regard. Distant Advantage is great for Rogues who emphasize ranged attacks.

2. CA is easy to get because the rest of the party is built to help the Rogue get it. They provide flanking and incentives not to attack the Rogue. They might have Vexing Flanker as well.

3. CA is easy to get, but dangerous, because it requires moving into perilous positions to get flanking.

4. CA is very hard to get because there is no good flanking partner or because the DM loves to use creatures that fly or otherwise are not easily flanked.

Note that sometimes a Rogue can easily get CA against at least one creature, but not necessarily the one that has been chosen for focus fire.

 

[MrMyth]

Actually, I was. I'd put barbarians first by a mile (no... two miles), then sorcs and rangers, and then rogues are toward the middle. So this is a nice, if small, boost. (They're still ahead of warlocks, though.)

That's interesting. I've generally always considered rangers and sorcerers to be easily in the lead (mainly due to sheer volume of attacks, with sorcerers having the downside of needing multiple targets to really shine). I'd then put rogues on the list, benefiting from excellent accuracy and damage, with barbarians coming in behind them, and then avengers and warlocks in the back but with various nifty features that can make them worthwhile.

I doubt this change will put rogues at the front of the pack, but will certainly allow for some builds that come close.

 

[evilbob]

The fact that personal experiences vary so widely is honestly encouraging. I was sure that barbarians were the top damage dealers by a longshot, but it seems I've just seen a lot of very good builds (and probably a lot of very poor rogue ones). I guess part of the distinction comes down to CA for the rogue: if you can consistently get it, that's great. Barbarians essentially have their extra damage built in, so it may just be easier (read: less tactically challenging) for them to get the high numbers.

(Also, my primary experience was with a very un-optimized artful rogue who was played rather poorly: they mostly attacked at range without CA. My wizard in the same party consistently did more damage to individuals, and with groups it was not even close. I know this is a poor example but I think it just goes to show that with a rogue, you have to have some tactical considerations to maximize damage. Barbarians, in my experience, can generally just walk up and hit things and still be effective.)

 

[chriton227]

At the same time, you're comparing specific at-wills while charging - which sounds like his forte, and you guys are doing pretty well to pull off so many charges.

Charges are easy to pull off for both of us, we both have a Badge of the Berserker (AV2) which prevents OAs from movement while charging.

In my experience, barbarians do more damage to more targets (especially whirling ones) and thus more overall damage. Plus their encounters and dailies tend to do more.

So far we are still low level, and our encounters are fairly close in damage. Looking at the higher level powers and items, I think things will start swinging towards the barbarian as I get more rages and encounter powers, and a Jagged Weapon will help too.

Maybe you just need to pull out the big guns more often?

I can't remember the last time I finished a fight with an unused encounter power (other than utility), and I only have two rages. The rages do help a lot with the damage, but it is only two fights out of our usual 5-8 encounters per day. Don't get me wrong, there have been times that I've dished out a truck load of damage (Rage of the Crimson Hurricane followed by Whirling Frenzy+Furious Assault with 6 targets, hitting them all with Frenzy), but on any given round, odds are the rogue deals more damage.