D&D 4E Women in 4E

[Lonely Tylenol]

As I said earlier:
I'm aware that the pictures aren't attractive. But it's an example of a double standard. Even in a picture not attempting to be eye candy, they're still showing comparatively more skin. It illustrates a mindset.

Give me a reason to believe this. So far, as I've pointed out, it's just a game of "yes it is!", "no it isn't!"

I'm willing to listen if you have one?

The burden of proof is on the people trying to claim that WotC are a bunch of sexists. That pretty much summarizes my position. Provide evidence, not half-baked theories.

 

[Andor]

I'm sorry that you think Boris Vajello is the peak of awesome, and that not many other people do, but the world has changed since then, and women are expected to be as capable and sensible as men.

Uh.. Have you ever actually looked at a piece of Boris Vajello art? The women are usually wearing more clothing than the men, and frequently look at least as capable/dangerous.

Mind you "Practical" or "Sensible" aren't really the first words that springs to mind for the outfits worn by either gender in his art.

 

[Wormwood]

The burden of proof is on the people trying to claim that WotC are a bunch of sexists.

Not to mention horny misanthropic perverts.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The reason they do that is very simple: Making women feel like crap.

Cosmo slaps a super thin airbrushed model on the front cover. Women, looking at the cover and thinking "Oh god I'll never look like her", feel ugly and fat. Then they notice the bold letters that say "FEEL LIKE A BLOATED COW? Six tips on how to lose eighty billion pounds!"

I've never bought into that theory. For one thing, it doesn't explain why women spend so much time looking at pictures of pretty women. "These pictures make me feel like crap! Must keep flipping through magazine and looking at said pictures for several minutes and show it to all my female friends so we can critique everything from her hair to how well her shoes match that dress! Feeling like crap is my favorite hobby!"

Yeah, also, every time I hear an argument like that it sounds to me like, "Women are stupid and easily manipulated. That magazine is not an example of something women actually like; it is merely something that they fall for because they are stupid and incapable of rational thought." I remember some of the first-wave feminists borrowed a similar idea from Marx. If women happened to like something that the writer happened to dislike, they were victims of "false consciousness" (read: mind-controlled by the patriarchy), and therefore their opinions on the matter could be discarded.

QFT. The main thing that boggles my mind is that all this ranting is aimed at Wotc Art of all things, which is studiously unsexualized 80% of the time, to the point that their own board traffic tend to get all excited on the rare occasion a book gets released with a depection of a vaugely attractive female, because it just doesn't happen that much.

I cannot count the number of times that someone has complained offhandedly about how Mialee is too plain, or actually ugly, or flat-chested, or any number of other bizarre sexist rantings. If 3rd edition art generates that sort of noise, I think WotC is probably doing okay. They are failing to titillate the very people who are looking to be titillated by the art in D&D.

 

[Doug McCrae]

That magazine is not an example of something women actually like; it is merely something that they fall for because they are stupid and incapable of rational thought.

You mean like men and pr0n mags? I'd be the first to admit I give rational thought a miss from time to time where breasts are concerned. Though it's happening less often as I get older.

 

[SteveC]

Amen.

Its the 21st century. Artwork of female characters needs to be made for female players. More than that even- it needs to be part of the overall branding of D&D. The game can be branded as a past time for horny, pimply misanthropes, or can be branded as something anyone with an imagination can enjoy. I hope for the latter.

And for the record, no amount of philosophizing on the cultural origins of the sexualization of nudity will make peek-a-booby armor non sexual. Its gratuitous nature undermines your premise.

Okay, I've said it before and I'll say it again: artwork that is designed to sell products to women is far more revealing and outright sexual than anything that's in the core D&D books, and is certainly far more sexual than that book cover.

I'm not talking about the Avalanche covers here, I'm talking about dynamic, action-based artwork that has characters in it that are sexy as all get-out, for both men and women. Not porn, not even romance novel covers, but something that's fun for everyone involved.

That's what D&D covers should be about.

I think that this game needs to really grow up, which is a dual-edged sword: on the one hand, the crazy over the top porn wanabee stuff needs to go, but on the other, this notion that sex and sexuality is something that is taboo and only going to turn women off needs to be tossed as well. You can make a book cover and art that is acceptable to parents of teenagers, and still is evocative and, yes, sexy. It's just that simple!

The real concern I have here is that the D&D books are still something that parents of teens can still feel comfortable buying for their kids, which from what I have seen of D&D 4E artwork, will hardly be an issue. If WotC did a test of their art style, and parents had an issue with it, I'd say that would be a real reason to make a change in the art style, since that's the largest demographic they're targeting for new players.

Beyond that, if someone were to say to me "I'm offended by that artwork! I will not play D&D," I'd ask them to consider what you actually do in a D&D game: namely kill dozens and dozens of intelligent creatures. Yes, we're back to the old chestnut that somehow no one complains about VIOLENCE in games, but, oh my, this character has cleavage on the cover! Run for it!

And finally, it's important to add that being interested in sex and sexuality isn't an inherently juvenile thing, and it's something that is shared by both men and women (I know, that's a shocker!) If you're going to say "take the sexuality out of my fantasy," I wonder what kind of fantasy you're talking about, since novels and movies with fantasy elements are rife with sexual images and imagery.

So let's keep things safe for the teens to buy, and keep the game evocative and interesting, m'kay?

--Steve

 

[SteveC]

The reason they do that is very simple: Making women feel like crap.

Cosmo slaps a super thin airbrushed model on the front cover. Women, looking at the cover and thinking "Oh god I'll never look like her", feel ugly and fat. Then they notice the bold letters that say "FEEL LIKE A BLOATED COW? Six tips on how to lose eighty billion pounds!"

You know, after reading this, I strongly suggest that you talk to a woman, frankly any woman, who actually reads Cosmo. As I've said before, I work in an office that is 60%+ women, and they're all educated and intelligent people. The gas-and-sip next door sells a lot of Cosmo, and I'll tell you that the women who buy it aren't doing that to make themselves feel fat and ugly.

I think this is a real danger whenever a group that's largely men gets together and talks about issues and how they matter to women. I imagine it is about the same as when a group of women get together to talk about men.

I think just about the only person on this thread who has really made any statements about the opinion of an actual honest-to-god woman who objects to this kind of artwork is Ruin Explorer, whose opinion I have to respect very strongly. I'm sure that I'm wrong about this, so I'm apologizing in advance to the people I've left out!

ENWorld has a lot of women gamers on it, and a lot of married guys as well, what do they have to say about all of this? Ultimately, the opinions of a lot of guys about how to attract women to gaming using artwork are likely to be less than stellar.

--Steve

 

[Hairfoot]

Well said, SteveC.

 

[Andor]

The PH race pictures are not indicative of this, except to a Victorian (who were pretty out-there deviant sexually anyway, as long as no one talked about it).

I disagree, but okay.

I'm guessing you don't actually know much about Victorians, given that the whole chair skirt thing was news to you. So then it's probably also true that you aren't aware that the repressive conservatism of the victorians led to a lot of pedophilia and other abuses. These were not a healthy people.

 

[DonTadow]

I don't see the problem. Find some wotc produced art since we are talking 4e (and comparing it to 3e) . I think things were respectable. Everything seems like a chance for someone to start burning bras. I hardly see a new edition of dungeons and dragons as a reason for social change.